Buckfast breeder queen

[B+.]

Breeder queens

not bad if it's a breeder queen.

I know this is going off at a tangent from the original discussion, but, I find the term "breeder queen" a bit misleading. It implies that you can buy in a good quality queen and start a whole line from that single queen. This is not the case.
I test a number of island-mated sister queens each year and select those that express the traits I am looking for for further breeding. You can't rely on someone else to select a queen for you. It just doesn't work that way, at least, not in my experience. There is variability even between a group of sister queens mated to the same group of drones. How much more variability do you think there will be if the drones which mate with the virgin queens come from several different mothers?
One of the problems I have with the higher level theories that get published is: they are statistical models. One of the basic assumptions in statistics is that you can take any sample at random and that it is representative of the population....but...how representative is it if there is variability even within a group of sisters mated to the same group of drones?

 

[mazzamazda]

I know this is going off at a tangent from the original discussion, but, I find the term "breeder queen" a bit misleading. It implies that you can buy in a good quality queen and start a whole line from that single queen. This is not the case.
I test a number of island-mated sister queens each year and select those that express the traits I am looking for for further breeding. You can't rely on someone else to select a queen for you. It just doesn't work that way, at least, not in my experience. There is variability even between a group of sister queens mated to the same group of drones. How much more variability do you think there will be if the drones which mate with the virgin queens come from several different mothers?
One of the problems I have with the higher level theories that get published is: they are statistical models. One of the basic assumptions in statistics is that you can take any sample at random and that it is representative of the population....but...how representative is it if there is variability even within a group of sisters mated to the same group of drones?

Agreed however I think if you start with a queen with good traits, select drones from also "Good" hives then you are really doing your best for your customers.

 

[mazzamazda]

Ohhhh, not cheap indeed. Hope it gives you lot of honey . Good luck with them...

Thank you!

 

[mazzamazda]

Thank you!

I meant to ask, where in Portugal are you?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Originally Posted by jenkinsbrynmair View Post
not bad if it's a breeder queen.

I know this is going off at a tangent from the original discussion, but, I find the term "breeder queen" a bit misleading. It implies that you can buy in a good quality queen and start a whole line from that single queen. This is not the case.
I test a number of island-mated sister queens each year and select those that express the traits I am looking for for further breeding. You can't rely on someone else to select a queen for you. It just doesn't work that way, at least, not in my experience. There is variability even between a group of sister queens mated to the same group of drones. How much more variability do you think there will be if the drones which mate with the virgin queens come from several different mothers?
One of the problems I have with the higher level theories that get published is: they are statistical models. One of the basic assumptions in statistics is that you can take any sample at random and that it is representative of the population....but...how representative is it if there is variability even within a group of sisters mated to the same group of drones?

My point was £120 for a 'breeder' queen (or to be more accurate IMHO a queen of good provenance) is not expensive. Over here you can expect to pay over a hundred quid for a bog standard close mated, II queen so no real difference

 

[Goran]

At my place the better queens are which I grow by myself ( one excellent apiary leader was originated from my mentor) than from professional queen growers. So, the question is did I have such luck or our queen growers do such sloppy job over here..
Not buckfasts, but about queens..

 

[vgoncalves]

I meant to ask, where in Portugal are you?

I'm from near Faro (Algarve).

Sometimes a year I go to Amarante, maybe we can meet one day...

 

[mazzamazda]

I'm from near Faro (Algarve).

Sometimes a year I go to Amarante, maybe we can meet one day...

A better place to keep bees, its only 12-13o here at the moment, is it much warmer in the Algarve? I know Amarante well, good restaurants with good views over the river, you are welcome to have a look around here if you are visiting.

 

[For want of a better word]

I know this is going off at a tangent from the original discussion, but, I find the term "breeder queen" a bit misleading. It implies that you can buy in a good quality queen and start a whole line from that single queen. This is not the case.
I test a number of island-mated sister queens each year and select those that express the traits I am looking for for further breeding. You can't rely on someone else to select a queen for you. It just doesn't work that way, at least, not in my experience. There is variability even between a group of sister queens mated to the same group of drones. How much more variability do you think there will be if the drones which mate with the virgin queens come from several different mothers?
One of the problems I have with the higher level theories that get published is: they are statistical models. One of the basic assumptions in statistics is that you can take any sample at random and that it is representative of the population....but...how representative is it if there is variability even within a group of sisters mated to the same group of drones?

Thanks for that B+... has always been a phrase I have struggled with... perhaps the term a queen from a colony of< good provenience>

I have kept the Buckfast bee in the past ( in Surrey) but found that the genetic traits rapidly deterioated... and even the expensive bought in breeder queens could often not perform.... as with all honeybees, a good crop of honey depends on many factors... forage being one!

My Cornish Native Amms would probably struggle in the constantly arid and hot iberian climate!!!


Mytten da

 

[B+.]

I have kept the Buckfast bee in the past ( in Surrey) but found that the genetic traits rapidly deterioated... and even the expensive bought in breeder queens could often not perform.... as with all honeybees, a good crop of honey depends on many factors... forage being one!

Quite right. Genetics can take you so far but (as Finman says) we need good forage too. Some of the traits have low heritability too. Thats why we have to work together to test LOTS of sister queens and find those that express the traits. Then breed from them.

 

[Fusion_power]

Some of the traits have low heritability too.

It is not only low heritability that is an issue. Several of the mite tolerance traits appear to exist at such low levels that detecting them to start with is difficult. If one colony in ten thousand exhibits a trait, there is a lot of sifting to be done through 9,999 other colonies to find that one. Fortunately, mother nature takes a hand by killing susceptible colonies leaving only the small number of mite tolerant bees alive. It is much more difficult to focus on traits associated with honey production.

 

[B+.]

It is not only low heritability that is an issue. Several of the mite tolerance traits appear to exist at such low levels that detecting them to start with is difficult. If one colony in ten thousand exhibits a trait,

From what I have read, the approach taken in the US is to use conventional multiple drone inseminations. This means that the odds of finding VSH traits would be very low (because you are looking for behavior in a subset of the colony).
The Dutch BeeBreed group has adopted a different approach. Using single drone insemination, they have found high levels of VSH in a few colonies even in one year (http://www.beebreed.nl/tieme-VSH-160130.pdf). Of course, these are inbred colonies that will need to be outbred and tested further before becoming useful commercially but, I think it illustrates that the genes are quite common and can be found quite easily.

 

[vgoncalves]

A better place to keep bees, its only 12-13o here at the moment, is it much warmer in the Algarve? I know Amarante well, good restaurants with good views over the river, you are welcome to have a look around here if you are visiting.

Yes, it's warmer in Algarve, right now is around 20 do degrees, the smell of spring is in the air. Nectar and pollen are comming in, Hives growing up very well now.

It's beginning the season of the happy beekeeper...

 

[Juhani Lundén]

I think it illustrates that the genes are quite common and can be found quite easily.

VSH genes can be found in all bees.

Arista foundation has at this moment a theory of 4 different additive genes.
All 4 =100% resistance, 1 =20% resistance

https://aristabeeresearch.org/wp-co...le-Drone-project-2014-Results-11-feb-2015.pdf

http://www.elgon.es/diary/?p=146