Breeding group progress

[B+.]

Thanks for that.
last season we carried out an inspection board "count" on varroa mite, looking specifically for signs of "biting" ( a "masters" work)... I think that it will be repeated next season as part of the PhD work. I will mention antennae and uncapped brood... can a freshly uncapped brood look like bald brood... as have noticed this in some colonies that also gave a low varroa count.

Exciting bit of research... particularly if this trait can be linked to a DNA sequence!

Nadelik Lowen

I'm not sure what you mean. Link what to a DNA sequence? It's a by-product of VSH behaviour.

I wouldn't even give this sort of project to an undergrad, let alone a Masters/Phd level student. It's just counting and presenting data. Any muppet can do that. The idea was quite novel though.

 

[Finman]

I'm not sure what you mean..

He is going to push a string of good genes into an layed egg.

 

[B+.]

For anyone interested, here is an introduction to the breeding programme (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/319060455_The_Basic_Concept_of_Honey_Bee_Breeding_Programs)

 

[TooBee...]

Thanks for that.
last season we carried out an inspection board "count" on varroa mite, looking specifically for signs of "biting" ( a "masters" work)...

When you say "signs of biting " are you referring to the dimples in the exoskeleton of varroa mites that form during their developmental stage and is not (most likely) inflicted on them by bees grooming activities, such as biting the mites out from underneath their fellow co workers?

I'm paraphrasing from memory a couple of research articles I've read, do you have any research articles that show that the marks (dimples) on the varroa are caused by the bees biting them (not from house cleaning) or is it being assumed?

I thought the only scientifically accepted why of trying to deal with varroa with non-treatment was to breed bees that removed the varroa from capped brood, not from grooming activities, or am I mistaken?

 

[B+.]

When you say "signs of biting " are you referring to the dimples in the exoskeleton of varroa mites that form during their developmental stage and is not (most likely) inflicted on them by bees grooming activities, such as biting the mites out from underneath their fellow co workers?

I'm paraphrasing from memory a couple of research articles I've read, do you have any research articles that show that the marks (dimples) on the varroa are caused by the bees biting them (not from house cleaning) or is it being assumed?

I thought the only scientifically accepted why of trying to deal with varroa with non-treatment was to breed bees that removed the varroa from capped brood, not from grooming activities, or am I mistaken?

No. There is a dimple in the exoskeleton anyway.
Biting refers to actual bits missing...like chips taken out (bees behave like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ToCn0agwlL8). I sometimes see it when I'm inspecting debris on the sticky board under the OMF but it is notoriously difficult to select for because damage could often be caused when they fall through the OMF. They can manage the numbers of mites using different methods but these are often difficult to get objective numbers on so you can't tell if you're selecting bees that increase it

 

[TooBee...]

From your knowledge or observations (I know that you've said it's difficult to establish) does an increase in hygiene (VSH) correlated with an increase of varroa intolerance amongst the workers, evidenced by increased grooming (biting, etc.)? Would an increase in Grooming behavior be correlated with intolerance with Hive Beetles, etc. (I'm guessing speculation here)?

Also, I've read that their is a correlation between non-aggression and calmness on the comb during inspection - is there a correlation between VSH and hygiene towards say chalkbrood, or Tropilaelaps? Or other brood diseases (I'm lazily defining varroa as a 'brood disease' as it affects the brood and the bees must somehow detect that there is something wrong under the cell capping)?

 

[For want of a better word]

Biting as in chunks of varroa exoskeleton... and bits of dismembered leg etc.
There was some debate about the "crenelation" or dimpling of the varroa not being a sign of biting but the natural effect of drying out once dead.

Just to clarify

 

[TooBee...]

The article I read concluded that the dimpling was more likely occurring during the early development of the varroa, but putting that aside, how does one establish that the damage to the dead varroa mite was inflicted before or after death?

 

[B+.]

The article I read concluded that the dimpling was more likely occurring during the early development of the varroa, but putting that aside, how does one establish that the damage to the dead varroa mite was inflicted before or after death?

The varroa mites go through three phases in the cell: egg, protonymph and deutonymph. In the protonymph stage, they have a transparent pearly white appearance. In the Deutonymph stage, they begin to take on colour until they are an adult and have a dark red colour. The jeuveniles die when the adult bee emerges from its cell as their exoskeleton is still too soft. Only the adult mites survive.
As far as I am aware, there is no way to differentiate between damage caused to the exoskeleton before or after the mites death.

 

[masterBK]

I would like to ask the seriously active queen rearers and breeders on this forum if they still use a swarm box cell starter system and finish them off in Demaree tops. If not, what do they do?
I used to do this but for the last few seasons have used cloake boards (so that colonies start and finish them).

 

[B+.]

I would like to ask the seriously active queen rearers and breeders on this forum if they still use a swarm box cell starter system and finish them off in Demaree tops. If not, what do they do?
I used to do this but for the last few seasons have used cloake boards (so that colonies start and finish them).

This might be better phrased as a question in the "Poll" section.
Personally, I've never used cloake boards - seems like a daft idea to me.
I use starters (made similar to Mike Palmers) which nurse the grafts until sealed. Then they are transferred into my incubator (https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3727) via the "Carricell" (see avatar). They stay in the incubator in Nicot cages until they emerge at which point they are marked with plastic disks and introduced to nucs.
I use 10 frame Langstroths (https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3732) instead of swarm boxes which I consider too small to accommodate the number of nurse bees I like to see in starters (https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3737)
I should add: it seems illogical to me to transfer larvae which are being fed the quantity and quality of food they need to make the best possible queens into a "finisher" between frames of open larvae. A great way of getting inter-caste bees if you ask me

 

[JEP]

I would like to ask the seriously active queen rearers and breeders on this forum if they still use a swarm box cell starter system and finish them off in Demaree tops. If not, what do they do?
I used to do this but for the last few seasons have used cloake boards (so that colonies start and finish them).

I can't speak for anyone else but personally I don't stick to just one queen rearing method. For me it depends on how many cells I want to rear from a particular breeder. When in the season I am doing it, if I want to rear them on the site of the breeder queen or am prepared to move stuff to other apiaries. It can also depend on things like if I have a colony on hand that is on the cusp of swarming to take advantage of as cell raiser.

As a general rule I find methods similar to the brother Adam / Mike Palmer methods i.e. massive queenless starter finishers the most reliable if you are wanting large quantities of cells and are wanting them early or late in the season. For smaller numbers of cells from a breeder queen then I sometimes use queenless starters and queenright finishers similar to how you describe. If it is mid season and I just want a few cells from a breeder i.e. when testing one year old queens as possible breeders for the future then I sometimes just use a colony that is about to swarm or a queenright starter finisher similar to that described by the NBU.

 

[Beefriendly]

Personally, I've never used cloake boards - seems like a daft idea to me.

Whats daft about the idea?
They seem to work well and produce good queens.

 

[B+.]

Whats daft about the idea?
They seem to work well and produce good queens.

Watch Mike Palmers queen rearing presentation. He explains it there.

 

[Curly green fingers]

Watch Mike Palmers queen rearing presentation. He explains it there.

Do you have a link for that?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Do you have a link for that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7tinVIuBJ8

 

[Curly green fingers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7tinVIuBJ8

I found it HM thanks..

 

[B+.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7tinVIuBJ8

Thanks HM. The specific segment I was referring to is here https://youtu.be/R7tinVIuBJ8?t=2416.
Mikes message is pretty clear: If you want the best queens it is possible to make, you don't leave things to chance. You have to set things up properly.

 

[Eyeman]

Richard Noel's version is alot easier to follow- It's now part of Michael Palmers series of videos.
I also vote for Brother Adam / Michael Palmer Queenless starter which can be united with the original colony to finish off. I keep them in the queenless starter for the full 10 days then use the bees to populate my mini mating nucs. It works well with a double 5 frame, just put in fewer queen cells. Sometimes use a nuc if I'm short of donated capped brood.

 

[B+.]

Richard Noel's version is alot easier to follow- It's now part of Michael Palmers series of videos.

I think you mean it the other way around. Richard visited Mike Palmer a few years ago and did a "remake" of Mikes explanation. He also has several videos of Mike introducing queens/etc on his YouTube channel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yppRnZvn9oM)