Mass selection vs individual selection for discussion

[Finman]

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And if we look the lenght of summer in Finland, queen business have limited weather conditions.

And when I have followed weathers of British Isles, mating conditions cannot compete with guys, who live around Mediterennian. Most to UK imported queens have come from Hawai.

 

[For want of a better word]

Fission Power....
Your "FACTS" do not stand up to rigorous scientific testing
An isolated group of bees of 10 colonies can produce a viable genetic base without inbreeding and also IF THE GENETIC TRAIT IS THERE produce varroa resistant bees within a very few generations.
You need to read more widely to get a better understanding of how honeybee genetics works.

Forget your reductionist approach to Science and look at the world more holistically.

It seems that in the Northern American Continent that the introduced species of honeybee have been allowed to introgress so much that the bad genetic traits have become dominant.... ( I could even say that about some of the human population as well ... by looking at what UK TV is broadcasting!!!)

Also needs to be pointed out that there are probably more beekeepers on the Isle of Wight than in the total of Finland.. and they are not having an inbreeding problem.

Just food for thought whilst you are mixing up 5 tonnes of 1:1 to feed your bees!

Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

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Queen breeders have contacts to all over the world.

If you have 10 colonies on solitary place that is a big fake .. Nothing more. You cannot succeed with dreaming.

Look at the world, what they are doing. Real breeders have International co operation.
This mite game has lasted quite a long time and where are the results. 35 years mite campaign. Half of my life.

IT is odd thing that USA is full of " Mite tolerant DIY hobby bee stocks", but USA has biggest dead rate of beehives in the world.

Something does not match now.
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[user 6228]

these may be of interest

Mattila, H. R., & Seeley, T. D. (2014). Extreme polyandry improves a honey bee colony’s ability to track dynamic foraging opportunities via greater activity of inspecting bees. Apidologie, 45(3), 347–363. http://doi.org/10.1007/s13592-013-0252-3

Hughes, W. O. H., Ratnieks, F. L. W., & Oldroyd, B. P. (2008). Multiple paternity or multiple queens: Two routes to greater intracolonial genetic diversity in the eusocial Hymenoptera. Journal of Evolutionary Biology, 21(4), 1090–1095. http://doi.org/10.1111/j.1420-9101.2008.01532.x

 

[Fusion_power]

I'm enjoying this. Finman, B+, and Hoppy all on the same side of the fence. Out of pure contrariness, JBM may be on the fence, and Derekm is distinctly on the other side of it.

As I stated, the elements of a mass selection program are a large initial population, intense selective pressure, and breeding from the survivors. Could we take a look at a study using just such a process? Can we make sure it is something current and relevant and not some dusty old hundred year old study from finman's wasted youth? Of course we can.


http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2016.1160709?scroll=top&needAccess=true


Note the elements:

A collection of commercial colonies (N = 268) in standard deep Langstroth hives used for queen rearing and honey production was established in 1999 as test population 1.

no treatment against Varroa destructor

new colonies were made from the survivors.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'm enjoying this. Out of pure contrariness, JBM may be on the fence,

Just sat here enjoying all the utter B*llox being spouted that's all

Suddenly realised why Disneyland was invented in America.

Never mind, once the trumpet gets elected president you won't have to worry about varroa - apparently they won't survive too well in a post apocalyptic noocluar wasteland

 

[Finman]

I'm enjoying this. Finman, B+, and Hoppy all on the same side of the fence. Out of pure contrariness, JBM may be on the fence, and Derekm is distinctly on the other side of it.

As I stated, the elements of a mass selection program are a large initial population, intense selective pressure,]

Derekm is a huge Queen breeder in British Isles. Other guys just pick swarm cells from hives and squeeze them

 

[B+.]

Quote:
A collection of commercial colonies (N = 268) in standard deep Langstroth hives used for queen rearing and honey production was established in 1999 as test population 1
:

Any information on the pedigree of these colonies?

 

[Fusion_power]

Holding on to individual selection precepts won't help when looking at a mass selection breeding program. This is what the study says.

These colonies were headed by naturally mated queens derived from commercial A. m. ligustica, A. m. carnica, A. m.caucasica, and A. m. mellifera breeder queens obtained in 1999 or earlier.

This covers the 4 geographic races most commonly used for honey production today. IMO, they could have benefited from including Lamarckii, Jemenitica, and Saharensis.

I can tell one thing for certain from the results. Their starting stock had been pre-selected for survival traits prior to start of the program. This is easily shown by survival of 1/3 of the colonies after the 2nd year.

 

[Truble]

I think I can understand where you are coming from. Mass selection will select for bees that will survive with varroa, this is natural selection at work. But the pitfall is will they be any good for beekeeping purposes where our beekeeping needs and selection criteria (for example honey yields/good temper etc) differ enormously from that needed for survival with a parasite. It may not be possible to breed a varroa tolerant bee that is any good for beekeeping needs.
The Avignon varroa tolerant bees honey yields almost doubled when they were treated with miticides. Suggesting that, in this case at least, living with varroa was very detrimental to honey yields. Whilst many will say this is unimportant to them, to many others it is.
Currently we are applying our selection criteria to bee breeding, in effect substituting for natural selection.

 

[B+.]

This covers the 4 geographic races most commonly used for honey production today. IMO, they could have benefited from including Lamarckii, Jemenitica, and Saharensis.

I'm not sure how you'd reproduce anything under this way of working. There would be too much variability

 

[Fusion_power]

B+: I'm not sure how you'd reproduce anything under this way of working. There would be too much variability

That is what "intense selective pressure" does. Please think through this and read the article a few times. Mass selection alone is not enough. Individual selection alone is not enough. Put them together and they may be enough to get us past varroa. Breeding for trachea mite resistance was a walk in the park compared to breeding for varroa resistance. We are not dealing with one or two genes that can be easily separated from the dross. We are also not dealing with cattle or race horses. We can put numbers in our favor by leveraging the high production potential of the queen and the unique mating behavior where a queen mates with 15 to 20 drones on average.

Truble: But the pitfall is will they be any good for beekeeping purposes where our beekeeping needs and selection criteria (for example honey yields/good temper etc) differ enormously from that needed for survival with a parasite.

Yes, you have a good part of the picture. The key difference is that honey yield and good temper are both amenable to further selection from a mite resistance/tolerance breeding program. Read the article and pay particular attention to the paragraph defining resistance and tolerance to get a better idea. Put a few specifics to this, my bees in particular are good tempered as a rule. I work them with a veil wearing t-shirt and jeans. I killed several otherwise good queens over the last 11 years because they were too defensive. My bees also produce a decent crop of honey, not as big as it could be, but definitely enough to satisfy most hobby beekeepers. In this area, an average of 40 pounds of surplus is typical. I'm getting a bit more than that usually in the range of 50 to 60 pounds. This year will be a ding in my average because I am swapping my bees from Langstroth to Dadant equipment. I'm looking at an average of 35 to 40 pounds. I will also note that the only major area my bees fall short is that they swarm much more than is acceptable in commercial beekeeping.

 

[Truble]

Yes, you have a good part of the picture. The key difference is that honey yield and good temper are both amenable to further selection from a mite resistance/tolerance breeding program..

You are suggesting we reset the clock and start from scratch. Throw everything that the bee breeders have achieved over the last 100 years or so right out of the window. Unlikely to happen in our lifetimes.

Whilst it is difficult to compare honey yields from one region to another let alone another country to another country, 50-60lbs per hive is not going to get many commercial keepers excited....Start talking the same in Kg's and people might be more interested...although I think Finman would still be poo-pooing even that.

An alternative strategy would be to keep what we already have and treat bees for varroa. Similar to giving your cat/dog/horse etc a worming every few months.
This strategy works fine for me.

 

[Hivemaker.]

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=390396&postcount=17


http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=16194

 

[For want of a better word]

Derekm is a huge Queen breeder in British Isles. Other guys just pick swarm cells from hives and squeeze them

I'm with JBM on the CARP!

For someone to make such a crass statement just shows the very shallow depth of knowledge in UK beebreeding... despite 10 degrees a bundle of Masters and a couple of PhDs

A Doctorate in Carp... just $10 from the University of Modern tosh. USA ?

Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

I'm looking at an average of 35 to 40 pounds. I will also note that the only major area my bees fall short is that they swarm much more than is acceptable in commercial beekeeping.

I do not understand that kind of yield. Average yields in my hives are 120-160 pounds.

From raspberry bees bring 10-18 pounds in a day.

If hive is very small, like 4 langstroth boxes, it cannot store nectar which it gets daily. It must stop the working.

 

[Fusion_power]

Yes, finman, it is a lot less than you can get in a season. I do not move my bees at all. They are on permanent stands. There are no crops grown in this area that would justify moving. OSR is grown 150 miles east but only a small amount. I could pick up some money for pollination in a few orchards or from pumpkin growers but that would require more work than I normally have time to do in early spring. I run a plant business and spring is the time of year that I sell several thousand dollars of seedlings.

This area has a 5 to 6 week long flow that lasts from roughly April 20th to May 31'st. The best crop I've managed in the past was in the range of 5 shallow supers per hive. This is equivalent to 150 pounds (68 kg). That was when I was running Buckfast queens in 1991 to 1993. This year was especially low because I transferred all my colonies into new equipment which meant they had to draw a lot of new comb. Comb drawing cost me 20 to 30 pounds or more per colony.

 

[Finman]

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Actually I live in Helsinki,100 miles away. I have travelled 50 years between Helsinki and my summer cottage.


My biggest yield is 400 pounds from one hive.

I keep only1-3 hives in one spot. And hives must be big.


Yes, I do much work with bees but I like it.

About breeding..... I buy well need queens and I take daughters from first generation.. IT is vain effort to rear good queens from 20 hive gang.

Varroa does not command me, how I nurse bees. I have had varroa 35 years.

To migrate hives to good pastures is much more important than breed queens. And to select good pastures needs lots of experience and skills. You can buy good queens but you cannot buy good pastures.
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[Finman]

I run a plant business and spring is the time of year that I sell several thousand dollars of seedlings.

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I have a rich wife. It took many years to find such.
Many trials and errors.

 

[B+.]

I don't see how this can be described as selection. Selection for what? Based on what? Tested how? Measured how?
You refer to breeding from "survivors" without any evidence of heritage beyond some vague notion of where they might once have come from but no idea of relationships between them.
When you talk about performance and excuse them for performing badly because of your management, this is just saying that they aren't being compared on a consistent basis (e.g. starting test colonies from equal weight of shook swarm on comb / foundation).
Surely, selection implies that some colonies have passed an explicit test that has been rationally designed to give meaningful information? Judging from what you have said over a period of time, I really don't see how you can claim any improvement at all. Referring to papers doesn't justify your lack of test results. I am sorry, but, this is not selective breeding in my opinion.