Breeding group progress

[B+.]

OK - But isn't breeding value a comparison against the mean of your own test population. What I am getting at is how does this relate to a comparison against bees in general outside of the breeding program. Its probably just me being a little thick today but I am struggling to understand the information presented in the graphs.

The mean is the 5-year moving average for the entire population, not just your own test group.
Anything outside of the population is outside the scope and is not considered.

 

[foghornleghorn]

Shhhh..there won't be any left.
A theoretical discussion on introducing VSH to a countries bees revolved round non treatment and constant buying of VSH queens.
Can't see that happening myself.

It only says that they're 85% hygienic, that's nothing special, a lot of breeders already had that. Paul jungels will have vsh buckfast

 

[Beefriendly]

Aren't you a cheery one!

 

[JEP]

The mean is the 5-year moving average for the entire population, not just your own test group.
Anything outside of the population is outside the scope and is not considered.

Thanks for the info B+, its been much appreciated. When I said "your own test population" I was actually referring to your breeding groups' own test population not just your own colonies, although I see now that the language I used was misleading.

I understand that as a closed group breeding project new genetic material can't be brought in. But are you saying that no comparisons with bees outside of the breeding program are carried out by the group. This seems strange to me. Surely the overall success of the project can only be measured by comparing large numbers of queens produced by the group to large numbers of queens produced by breeders outside of the group.

 

[B+.]

Thanks for the info B+, its been much appreciated. When I said "your own test population" I was actually referring to your breeding groups' own test population not just your own colonies, although I see now that the language I used was misleading.

I understand that as a closed group breeding project new genetic material can't be brought in. But are you saying that no comparisons with bees outside of the breeding program are carried out by the group. This seems strange to me. Surely the overall success of the project can only be measured by comparing large numbers of queens produced by the group to large numbers of queens produced by breeders outside of the group.

The breeding value is a percentage above, or below, the mean for the population. The population is along race lines, so, clearly the breeding values relate to different populations. If you took a breeding value of 120% for carnica and compared it to a breeding value of 120% for Ligustica, what does that mean? The averages that they're based on could be completely different.

 

[Hunajavelho]

It only says that they're 85% hygienic, that's nothing special, a lot of breeders already had that. Paul jungels will have vsh buckfast

and only on paternal side. Not much to talk about when only on drones. Sounds more like a marketing trick, of course it does little harm if one wants to improve less hygienic stock.

In Denmark they been selecting for hygienic behaviour for years and all their breeder queens are performing at least 95%.
Still not much do with varroa survival.

 

[B+.]

There was an interesting discussion at the BeeBreed-NL meeting on saturday (15/12/2018). Henk Kok presented the results of a project where he counted the white antennae of pupa removed from cells in VSH colonies. A contrasting argument was put forward by Bart Barten that he did not observe any correlation .....The jury is still out on that one!

Pim also presented the method used by Arista Bee Research (https://aristabeeresearch.org/) for VSH testing. The graphs showed a decreasing reproducing mite count so the method was effective.

I can't post the slides as they are unpublished work and some are copyright of Arista Bee Research.

 

[For want of a better word]

There was an interesting discussion at the BeeBreed-NL meeting on saturday (15/12/2018). Henk Kok presented the results of a project where he counted the white antennae of pupa removed from cells in VSH colonies. A contrasting argument was put forward by Bart Barten that he did not observe any correlation .....The jury is still out on that one!

B+ can you add anything to the antennae counting?
Was this on all brood or just drone?
Any results in for the DNA / VSH traits work that is being undertaken?

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

B+ can you add anything to the antennae counting?
Was this on all brood or just drone?
Any results in for the DNA / VSH traits work that is being undertaken?

Yeghes da

When workers expressing the VSH trait detect reproducing varroa mites inside a sealed cell, they uncap it and remove the pupa beneath in an attempt to get at the mite. Now, they don't always kill the mite but the disturbance in her reproduction cycle is a control mechanism which the colony can exploit. By preventing the increase in varroa population, the colony is able to go through the whole season without medication. Of course, it's not just single colonies but groups of full-sisters that are tested.
If I understood correctly, it is both worker and drone brood since the pupae are often butchered and all you can find on the inspection tray are the antennae. The fact that they counted white antennae gives you an indication of the age of the pupae when the VSH expression kicks in.
No results of the DNA work was presented at the meeting. It focussed mainly on matters that only affected the NL group (e.g. Vlieland is becoming very popular because the breeding value of the drone producing queens is so high that there is talk of limiting the number of EWK that can be taken - there is an agreement that the number of honeybee colonies won't exceed a certain number so as not to over compete with other pollinators). There was talk of increasing the target breeding value to 130% (3 s.d. above the 5-year mean) for drone mothers placed on the island to mate with virgin queens in EWKs (Ein-Waben-Kasten = one frame cage (https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3749)) so this explains why Vlieland is becoming so popular and why the Dutch group are doing so well. I have 2 queens (full sisters) in my 2019 test group that have expected breeding values of 133%, so I'll be interested to see how they perform next year. Who knows, they may become drone mothers themselves.

I didn't get back until quite late last night (Fog at the airport delayed our fight home) so I'm still organizing my photos/notes/etc

 

[B+.]

I have 2 queens (full sisters) in my 2019 test group that have expected breeding values of 133%, so I'll be interested to see how they perform next year. Who knows, they may become drone mothers themselves.

Oh, while I remember, there was a presentation on the changes that have occurred in the most recent BeeBreed site update. Quite a lot of work has been done on recording observations throughout the year rather than having a mammoth data entry exercise at the end of the season. Also, there are changes in the way the ancestry is recorded - mostly to facilitate single drone insemination and different numbers of drones (useful for people doing II) and drone mothers from different lines (useful to AGT who sometimes have different drone-mother lines at their mating stations - akin to random mating but with only the best colonies available). As you can see, a lot of work done on mating system design.

 

[For want of a better word]

Thanks for that.
last season we carried out an inspection board "count" on varroa mite, looking specifically for signs of "biting" ( a "masters" work)... I think that it will be repeated next season as part of the PhD work. I will mention antennae and uncapped brood... can a freshly uncapped brood look like bald brood... as have noticed this in some colonies that also gave a low varroa count.

Exciting bit of research... particularly if this trait can be linked to a DNA sequence!

Nadelik Lowen

 

[B+.]

Thanks for that.
last season we carried out an inspection board "count" on varroa mite, looking specifically for signs of "biting" ( a "masters" work)... I think that it will be repeated next season as part of the PhD work. I will mention antennae and uncapped brood... can a freshly uncapped brood look like bald brood... as have noticed this in some colonies that also gave a low varroa count.

Exciting bit of research... particularly if this trait can be linked to a DNA sequence!

Nadelik Lowen

Well, you can often see cells that have been opened and resealed (cappings lighter in the centre) when you are looking at VSH. The shape of the capping would also be different in bald brood. Look at the age of the surrounding brood too. If the workers have butchered pupae infested by varroa, you will see patches of brood that are older than others. Go back and have a look at Mike Palmers presentation on Queen Rearing at the NHS. He touches upon this too.
I have to stress: individual colonies aren't a good guide. You have to look at groups of full-sibs

 

[masterBK]

Is this what you mean?

 

[B+.]

Is this what you mean?

No.
The workers will uncap, then recap some cells. You will see light wax in the centre of the cell and darker wax towards the outside.

https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFil...01-600/504-Harris--Changes in Infestation.pdf

For anyone interested in developing VSH, there is also this (http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static...018pdf.pdf?token=e1qn8EmevXIMmILcNRikp5TKRP4=)

 

[Eyeman]

No.
The workers will uncap, then recap some cells. You will see light wax in the centre of the cell and darker wax towards the outside.

https://www.ars.usda.gov/ARSUserFil...01-600/504-Harris--Changes in Infestation.pdf

For anyone interested in developing VSH, there is also this (http://static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static...018pdf.pdf?token=e1qn8EmevXIMmILcNRikp5TKRP4=)

Looks the other way round to me- darker wax used for recapping.

 

[B+.]

Looks the other way round to me- darker wax used for recapping.

What you're seeing is part of the pupal cacoon that gets stuck to the inside of the wax capping. The outside will appear lighter where they re-seal it with new wax

 

[Eyeman]

What you're seeing is part of the pupal cacoon that gets stuck to the inside of the wax capping. The outside will appear lighter where they re-seal it with new wax

The caption in the article says:

Brood cells may be punctured or uncapped
by hygienic bees, and the holes can be subsequently recapped with wax that will not be lined with silk.

Doesn't have any pupal cacoon in the inside of the new wax?

 

[For want of a better word]

If one of the recapped cells ( as per image B) is opened up, does it cintain a live pupae?

Very most probably not... but the recapped cells look very much like the Danish Pastry virus infected cells, that contain a dead pupae?
HM put some of my images up some time ago.

Are you finding a lot of dead and cut up bits of varroa on the inspection board?

Nadelik Lowen

 

[B+.]

If one of the recapped cells ( as per image B) is opened up, does it cintain a live pupae?

Very most probably not... but the recapped cells look very much like the Danish Pastry virus infected cells, that contain a dead pupae?
HM put some of my images up some time ago.

Are you finding a lot of dead and cut up bits of varroa on the inspection board?

Nadelik Lowen

The way I understand it is that the workers may uncap the cell to satisfy themselves that the pupa is ok. If they are satisfied, they reseal it and leave the pupa alone. If they are not satisfied, they remove it.
During the summer I have OMF without monitoring board. So, this project appeared interesting. Bart did the same test and did not find a correlation though. I am not convinced that it's a good indicator.

 

[B+.]

The caption in the article says:


Doesn't have any pupal cocoon in the inside of the new wax?

If they have uncapped and resealed the pupa will already be in its cocoon and cannot add to the outside. That's why cells that are opened subsequently don't have cocoon attached. I am talking about the outside appearance though. The paper is talking about the inside of the capping