AGT News

[Walrus]

Hi B+. As I understand it you are breeding in the hygienic trait whilst keeping other desirable traits such as wintering, honey production' limited swarming etc. Is that specifically because we know that hygienic bees control varroa mites better, or because they keep colonies healthier (e.g. less brood disease), or both?

I know that for varroa tolerance Randy Oliver has been selecting breeder queens from colonies which keep the mite levels low without treatment, measured using alcohol wash. Only 2% of his colonies could do that in year one. He is not specifically targeting hygienic behaviour but the ability to maintain low mite levels. If hygienic behaviour is just one of a number of strategies that bees use to control mite levels, might we be missing something by just concentrating on hygienic behaviour?

 

[B+.]

Hi B+. As I understand it you are breeding in the hygienic trait whilst keeping other desirable traits such as wintering, honey production' limited swarming etc. Is that specifically because we know that hygienic bees control varroa mites better, or because they keep colonies healthier (e.g. less brood disease), or both?

I know that for varroa tolerance Randy Oliver has been selecting breeder queens from colonies which keep the mite levels low without treatment, measured using alcohol wash. Only 2% of his colonies could do that in year one. He is not specifically targeting hygienic behaviour but the ability to maintain low mite levels. If hygienic behaviour is just one of a number of strategies that bees use to control mite levels, might we be missing something by just concentrating on hygienic behaviour?

Hi Steve
In America, they threw lots of money at developing specific traits like VSH and achieved it quite quickly. The problem was that those bees were deficient in other traits. The BeeBreed approach is to progress slowly across a wider portfolio of traits while keeping inbreeding low. It takes longer but you have something that you can live with throughout the programme. I don't mean to suggest that that's all a breeder can do because, in AGT, the focus is more on varroa control.
I have very docile bees compared to what beekeepers in this country are used to (you may have seen the German videos on YouTube where the bees are very docile?). They are also healthy and productive. All without treating!
Hygiene is a valuable trait in itself as it suppresses certain disease before it has a chance to take hold. Carnica are particularly hygienic and it is well known that they remove chalkbrood but other things can impact on the development of a colony too. Can you imagine having bees that detected and removed dead/dying brood straight away? These colonies did it so quickly that I hadn't even finished piercing the cells and they were already beginning to remove the cappings on the first cells. When I returned after 5 hours, they were in a frenzy removing brood from the test area (I had to brush them off to get the photo) - quite amazing to see!. This is something I have been working on for a while but never had it to this extent (previously around 95%).
The difficulty in looking at other mechanisms of varroa control is that they're very difficult to measure objectively and, if you can't do that, it's almost impossible to chart progress. I have seen people looking at these other mechanisms and its a here-today, gone-tomorrow situation so I prefer to stay with something more tangible.

 

[SDM]

Mine arrived ok a couple of weeks ago

I got one after 10 days having been sent to Austria by mistake first and a replacement that took 7 days ( 5 at the airport) all dead.

 

[Walrus]

Hi Steve
In America, they threw lots of money at developing specific traits like VSH and achieved it quite quickly. The problem was that those bees were deficient in other traits. The BeeBreed approach is to progress slowly across a wider portfolio of traits while keeping inbreeding low. It takes longer but you have something that you can live with throughout the programme. I don't mean to suggest that that's all a breeder can do because, in AGT, the focus is more on varroa control.
I have very docile bees compared to what beekeepers in this country are used to (you may have seen the German videos on YouTube where the bees are very docile?). They are also healthy and productive. All without treating!
Hygiene is a valuable trait in itself as it suppresses certain disease before it has a chance to take hold. Carnica are particularly hygienic and it is well known that they remove chalkbrood but other things can impact on the development of a colony too. Can you imagine having bees that detected and removed dead/dying brood straight away? These colonies did it so quickly that I hadn't even finished piercing the cells and they were already beginning to remove the cappings on the first cells. When I returned after 5 hours, they were in a frenzy removing brood from the test area (I had to brush them off to get the photo) - quite amazing to see!. This is something I have been working on for a while but never had it to this extent (previously around 95%).
The difficulty in looking at other mechanisms of varroa control is that they're very difficult to measure objectively and, if you can't do that, it's almost impossible to chart progress. I have seen people looking at these other mechanisms and its a here-today, gone-tomorrow situation so I prefer to stay with something more tangible.

Thanks.

 

[B+.]

Is that specifically because we know that hygienic bees control varroa mites better, or because they keep colonies healthier (e.g. less brood disease), or both?

A bit of both. As I said earlier, hygiene is valuable in itself but, knowing that the bees are sensitive to brood disorders means we know that we are targeting the effort where it can do the most good. It is quite laborious sitting at the microscope inspecting the contents of cells. You have to categorize any mites you find by age (protonymph/deutonymph) and gender. What you are really looking for is a single foundress mite or a foundress with only a son. Then, because you are looking at purple eyed pupae, you know that any female progeny wouldn't have time to develop and can't survive outside of the cell. Some mites are infertile too so all of this caps the development of the varroa population and allows the colony to function throughout the season without treatment.

 

[SDM]

Perhaps so. I just think if more people tested their colonies we'd be a lot closer to that point (i.e. we'd have a gap analysis and could plan a path forward)

I can see why you are short of folk willing to put in the same time that you do, without the benefits is slow to catch on.

 

[B+.]

I can see why you are short of folk willing to put in the same time that you do, without the benefits is slow to catch on.

Of course, proper breeding isn't for everyone. It does require some effort but, if you don't apply yourself, you'll never see the results. As Beefriendly often says, it's frustrating to know these things are out there but not available to the wider audience. That's because they're quite rare and breeders keep them for themselves. The only thing the "average beekeeper" (whatever that is) can hope for is a daughter of a queen whose colony expresses the trait well. They are as rare as hens teeth though.

 

[Beefriendly]

They are as rare as hens teeth though.

With selective breeding anything is possible.

 

[SDM]

The only thing the "average beekeeper" (whatever that is) can hope for is a daughter of a queen whose colony expresses the trait well. They are as rare as hens teeth though.

Since the average beekeepers don't have access to controlled mating sites that will be as good as it gets.
So without constant testing and culling the majority of queens VSH is unsustainable yes ?
I mean even if we put 100% VSH queens in every hive in the country, we wouldn't have a resistant population a few years later

 

[B+.]

Since the average beekeepers don't have access to controlled mating sites that will be as good as it gets.
So without constant testing and culling the majority of queens VSH is unsustainable yes ?
I mean even if we put 100% VSH queens in every hive in the country, we wouldn't have a resistant population a few years later

There are beekeeping institutes and breeding groups all over Europe that provide control mated queens. If you don't look, you won't find. It depends whether you really want them or not.
Your "something for nothing" attitude is disappointing but common here. That's why we're in the mess we are IMHO. In countries like Germany, it is not only socially unacceptable but illegal to keep bees that are a danger to people or a threat to the breeding programmes they have there. As more people become aware of the possibilities bee breeding offers, I'm sure that your sort of beekeeping will become a thing of the past, just as "let-alone" beekeeping has.

 

[Beefriendly]

wouldn't have a resistant population a few years later

It seems from the Buckfast VSH bees from Peter Stofen that breeding VSH drones with VSH queens doesn't guarantee the offspring as being VSH. It's not a dominant set of traits.

 

[B+.]

It seems from the Buckfast VSH bees from Peter Stofen that breeding VSH drones with VSH queens doesn't guarantee the offspring as being VSH. It's not a dominant set of traits.

It isn't as simple as basic Mendelian genetics. Breeding values are a much better guide as they convey the extent of a traits expression. I roll my eyes skyward at people saying they can buy hygienic or SMR/VSH queens on the internet. It shows they don't understand how it works.

 

[Walrus]

There are beekeeping institutes and breeding groups all over Europe that provide control mated queens. If you don't look, you won't find. It depends whether you really want them or not.
Your "something for nothing" attitude is disappointing but common here. That's why we're in the mess we are IMHO. In countries like Germany, it is not only socially unacceptable but illegal to keep bees that are a danger to people or a threat to the breeding programmes they have there. As more people become aware of the possibilities bee breeding offers, I'm sure that your sort of beekeeping will become a thing of the past, just as "let-alone" beekeeping has.

Bit harsh? I thought SDM was just asking a reasonable question...but always hard to tell from just the written word.

 

[Beefriendly]

It isn't as simple as basic Mendelian genetics.

That would be why I said traits plural. Of course it's multigenic, but traits can be selected for and stabilised. Brother Adam did a remarkable job of stabilising many beekeeper desirable multigenic triats in his Buckfast lines.
What I find confusing is the assumption that Hygienic behaviour will inevitably lead to VSH.
One of the method by which A. cerana larvae cope with varroa is apoptosis. When a worker larva is parasitised by a varroa mite it kills itself. Thus they can only breed in the drone larvae which are present at much lower numbers.
I've long puzzled why no-one has looked for this trait in populations of bees that seem to have natural low varroa numbers.

 

[B+.]

Bit harsh? I thought SDM was just asking a reasonable question...but always hard to tell from just the written word.

Maybe so but I get fed up hearing the same thing from people who want all of the benefits and don't want to put any work into it.
I work damned hard at what I do. I come here and explain it (in some detail) so there isn't an information vacuum. Maybe it would be better if I didn't bother

 

[SDM]

Maybe so but I get fed up hearing the same thing from people who want all of the benefits and don't want to put any work into it.
I work damned hard at what I do. I come here and explain it (in some detail) so there isn't an information vacuum. Maybe it would be better if I didn't bother

Your quite right I'm not going to put in the work. I have neither the time or the aptitude to commit. As for "something for nothing " attitude . I am prepared to pay, but now if i understand correctly, paying would be futile.
As at no time in the future would I be able to reliably open mate queens that retain those traits even at f1.

It's a bit disappointing really as in the real world VSH will only be of interest to breeders willing to continue the "damned hard work" ad infinitum . Yet never having a product of use to the rest of beekeepers.

 

[B+.]

at no time in the future would I be able to reliably open mate queens that retain those traits even at f1.

I think you can do yourself a favour and learn a little genetics. Until then, save your cash because you'll only be disappointed with anything you get.

 

[SDM]

Until then ? Why wouldn't I be disappointed after understanding a little more ? If it's because I'd understand I could never buy a breeder queen with which to raise and open mate queens that express VSH, then that's pretty much what I've just said.
If that's not why, then I'm lost

 

[Walrus]

closed at OPs request, and because the point of the OP was to pass on some info about one bee breeding project which has now been done.