Breeding for mite tolerance

[Finman]

.
Honeybee is a wild animal. Skill of beekeeping is such, that you know, what that bug is going to do, and what its instincts drive it to do.

First of all honey bees want to gather honey. So I carry them to best places where they can execute their will.

Then I rob their crop and I replace winter stores with sugar. Then I can rob their hives again next summer.

That is my beekeeping in nut shell.

I do not want, that Varroa destructor dictates, what I should do , and so I try to poison those bugs.

Amen.

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[B+.]

I want to flatten the brood structure by putting honey supers on top of a dadant box while maintaining the equivalent brood capacity of a double Langstroth configuration.

As far as I am aware, a Dadant deep is 2" deeper than a Langstroth (or the same as a Langstroth Jumbo, although with slightly deeper frame spacing). Moving to a Dadant will, therefore, give you the equivalent of an extra 2 Langstroth frames (approximately). This is far less than the 10 extra frames you would have in a double Langstroth so it wouldn't give you the extra space you are looking for. Am I missing something?

 

[Finman]

You forgot the bessie bug. Finman clearly invoked a bessie bug that lays eggs in rolled up balls of manure in the pasture. Finman, what were you doing digging black beetles out of manure? Inquiring minds want to know. (or maybe they DON'T want to know) Manure and flattery both smell sweet at first, but the manure will improve your .

I was 3 years old, when I gathered those bessie bugs from manure cakes. We had one cow. IT was brought from area, which is now Russian. My mother escaped second World War with her family from area and brought a cow with then. Bessie keeping stopped when we moved to town next autumn. Year was 1950

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

balls of manure in the pasture

sounds like discarded sun hives... or is this some kind of code?

Yeghes da

Heidi's gone REALLY quiet. Last we heard from here she was making concessions in the direction of treating so I hope she hasn't had bad losses or whatever.

 

[Goran]

I've kept bees in double and triple Langstroth deeps for 40+ years, and I've never found that the queens hesitated to cross the inter-frame gap, or that multiple boxes increased the incidence of swarming.

I run on three lang deeps in main forage, framed queen excluder with entrance is above first box.. Not rarely ( blessed by quality of beekeeping hardware we have over here), turned out some queen excluders faulty and queen spread brood through all three boxes like a rocket.. Then is really joy to sort that mess back with another "reliable" qe..

 

[Fusion_power]

As far as I am aware, a Dadant deep is 2" deeper than a Langstroth (or the same as a Langstroth Jumbo, although with slightly deeper frame spacing). Moving to a Dadant will, therefore, give you the equivalent of an extra 2 Langstroth frames (approximately). This is far less than the 10 extra frames you would have in a double Langstroth so it wouldn't give you the extra space you are looking for. Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing two critical pieces of information. I am setting up Square Dadant depth boxes which are 18 5/16 interior measure both directions and 11 5/8 inches deep. I also use 31mm frames. I can get 14 frames in one box. A Langstroth 9 1/8 frame has 7100 cells of capacity and in a double box gives 142,000 total cells. A Dadant 11 1/4 frame has 9000 cells of capacity and with 14 frames gives 126,000 total cells. This is not the end of the story though, have you noticed that queens rarely lay in the corners of frames? Fourteen of the Dadant depth frames have 24 less corners than 20 Langstroth frames. This should translate into about 5000 more usable cells in 14 Dadant frames.

This begs the question, why do I use 1.25 inch frames? I've used them since 1977 and found some significant benefits. The first is that bees build up measurably faster in spring on 1.25 inch frames.

Another item you might ask is how much does it cost to set up a Square Dadant depth hive compared to two Langstroths. I can fully equip a Dadant depth square hive for $51 vs roughly $52 to equip two Langstroths. These numbers will vary quite a bit depending on source of materials. I am factoring in $1.75 X 14 for foundation, $1.00 X 14 for my time and material to build the frames, and $12.50 to purchase the 11 5/8 deep box. For the Langstroths, I am factoring in $1.25 X 20 for foundation, $.80 X 20 for frames commercially produced, and $11.00 for the 9 5/8 deep box.


Here are comparison numbers for several sizes of frames including Dadant deep frames.

Here is 4.9 foundation cell counts
11 1/4: 10513
9 1/8: 8307
7 1/4: 6360
6 1/4: 5322
5 3/8: 4413

Here is 5.1 foundation cell counts
11 1/4: 9705
9 1/8: 7668
7 1/4: 5871
6 1/4: 4912
5 3/8: 4074

Here is 5.3 foundation cell counts
11 1/4: 8986
9 1/8: 7100 (* this is standard Langstroth deep foundation cells per frame)
7 1/4: 5436
6 1/4: 4549
5 3/8: 3772

Here is 7.1 drone foundation cell counts (* The hive and the honeybee gives 6.67 for drone combs!)
11 1/4: 5007
9 1/8: 3956
7 1/4: 3029
6 1/4: 2535
5 3/8: 2102

 

[Finman]

I run on three lang deeps

queen spread brood through all three boxes like a rocket.. ..

That I do not believe.
If you have so good layers, the hive needs 10 langstroth boxes.
And brood cycle is 3 weeks.

I do not use excluder, and still queens do not lay like rocket.

I use 3 brood boxes, and then lowest acts as pollen store.Then bees do not store pollen into supers.
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[jenkinsbrynmair]

JBM, the blood farting, **** orientated missile.

I like it! it has a certain ring - not sure my Mam does though

 

[Finman]

This begs the question, why do I use 1.25 inch frames? I've used them since 1977 and found some significant benefits. The first is that bees build up measurably faster in spring on 1.25 inch frames.


Here are comparison numbers for several sizes of frames including Dadant deep frames.

Here is 4.9 foundation cell counts
11 1/4: 10513
9 1/8: 8307
7 1/4: 6360
6 1/4: 5322
5 3/8: 4413

Here is 5.1 foundation cell counts
11 1/4: 9705
9 1/8: 7668
7 1/4: 5871
6 1/4: 4912
5 3/8: 4074

Here is 5.3 foundation cell counts
11 1/4: 8986
9 1/8: 7100 (* this is standard Langstroth deep foundation cells per frame)
7 1/4: 5436
6 1/4: 4549
5 3/8: 3772

Here is 7.1 drone foundation cell counts (* The hive and the honeybee gives 6.67 for drone combs!)
11 1/4: 5007
9 1/8: 3956
7 1/4: 3029
6 1/4: 2535
5 3/8: 2102

I do not use excluders. I do not need to count, how much cells they use. They can use as much as they want.
.

Second question: Why bees draw faster foundations. I do not mind. They draw them when they need new combs. Every hive have drawn their combs.
.

 

[B+.]

I am setting up Square Dadant depth boxes which are 18 5/16 interior measure both directions and 11 5/8 inches deep. I also use 31mm frames. I can get 14 frames in one box.

Assuming all your numbers are correct (and I haven't checked them), this will make a very large brood chamber. I have two questions:
1. What are your winters like? That is a very large area for a colony to heat.
2. Do you move your colonies? I hope you are fit and strong, because a colony in such a large box will be very heavy, although compared to 2-3 Langstroth boxes, it would probably be a more manageable size/shape.

Interesting discussion though. It just goes to show how different things are in other parts of the world. Please keep us informed on how this plan of yours progresses.

 

[Fusion_power]

You missed one more objective of the large hive bodies. I want to be able to run them with 2 queens by placing a division board in the middle. Now think through the possibilities of having 2 queens overwinter in each hive. I could sell one queen and remove the division board in spring just before the flow. There is a market for established laying queens in mid April. I would have a hive with potentially 120,000 or more bees at the beginning of the main flow and I would have just sold a queen at a profit.

In the fall, raise two queens, rinse, repeat.

 

[Finman]

Y main flow and I would have just sold a queen at a profit.

In the fall, raise two queens, rinse, repeat.

Queen price is in USA 35$. But your Queen
is 1 y old, and the value is perhaps 10$.

Is it a good business?
.

 

[Fusion_power]

My queen would be 7 months old and have laid through part of the fall and part of the spring. There would be a market for them, perhaps a better market than for spring raised queens from Florida. In addition, I would hit the spring flow with a huge population of bees to produce honey. I think I might even produce more honey than your hives can Finman.

 

[Finman]

I think I might even produce more honey than your hives can Finman.

Get better pastures to then, and you get 300 kg/hive. You have long summers there....and pollination fees. You will be rich.

 

[Fusion_power]

You will be rich.

Now that would be hilarious. I don't know any rich beekeepers.

 

[For want of a better word]

Now that would be hilarious. I don't know any rich beekeepers.

I do... but their wealth has been inherited!

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides...EP//TEXT+MOTION+B8-2015-1200+0+DOC+XML+V0//EN

Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

.
I was close to be rich, because my wife inherited. She said, that no thanks, but you have your beekeeping incomes.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

I read that article a few days ago. My bees have such low mite populations that they are almost undetectable. It is possible that competive exclusion is what they are doing, but that does not explain the lack of mites.

If superinfection exclusion really is at work in your "hygienic" colonies, is it possible that it has been going on for some time and this mechanism has already reduced the mite population?

For instance, supposing the mechanism is that the Type B virus changes the sense of smell of either the bees or the mites (this latter is more plausible) such that the mites can no longer hide on the bees by mimicking their scent. The bees can then detect the mites (or most of them) so that, over time, the mite population goes down. As a result you, as the beekeeper, find the mites "almost undetectable" and describe your bees as hygienic. Possible or what?

CVB

 

[Fusion_power]

Occam's razor, simplest explanation. Your reasoning is unnecessarily complex therefore unlikely. The simplest explanation is that my bees are highly hygienic and good allogroomers. I've watched them dragging larvae out of the cell with an attached mite. I don't see it very often and rarely can even find a mite after diligent searching and raking out drone brood.

Either way is not really important to me. What is important is that my bees are alive and thriving and making a crop of honey in season.

 

[Finman]

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But if I choose mite resistant bees or good layers, I choose big layers.

Big winter clusters are important in my climate. A 5$ smaller sugar consumption means nothing. It is value of 1 kg honey. Big layers bring 30-50 kg more honey.

About philosophy:

As we use to say here :" We go with these". I am not going to learn every day something new.

I am aftaid that some day everything is too new: Wife, children, friends... Bees, what bees, never heard.

Mite has not role in my life. Sometimes I forget to kill then.

Healthy hives.... I keep 20% spare hives. If I loose some hive, it belongs to this job.