BBKA Bee Breeding certificate.

[drex]

You shouldn't confuse this with breeding (I am sure that DrEx knows enough genetics not to).

Exactly B+, that is why I say I leave breeding to the professionals. I am simply trying to point out that it is possible to improve on what you have by rigorous selection. I am trying to make my beekeeping sustainable with a lot of ideas from Mike Palmer. I would love docile bees as you show, but in my circumstances, if I bought in a few such queens, in a generation I would be back to mongrels, which is an unsustainable situation, without AI or cooperation from the local beekeeping community.
I am taking 8 full colonies and 7 nucs through this winter, all with 2017 queens. The nucs will provide a backup for any queens deemed undesirable in the full colonies

 

[B+.]

I am simply trying to point out that it is possible to improve on what you have by rigorous selection. I am trying to make my beekeeping sustainable with a lot of ideas from Mike Palmer. I would love docile bees as you show, but in my circumstances, if I bought in a few such queens, in a generation I would be back to mongrels, which is an unsustainable situation, without AI or cooperation from the local beekeeping community.

Indeed, you can. You can always cull the worst of your queens (if you have spare queens to replace them with). Not everyone can do this though and you 'll have to keep doing it every generation because you`re limited by the quality of your local drones.
I hoped to show a different way. In Germany/etc, groups co-operate and share material for the benefit of everyone. There are no losers and everyone benefits. They even have people like Frau Winkler who will inseminate your virgin queens for a small fee. That has to be better than the mongrels the BBKA are promoting

 

[Swarm]

No, I really am interested what you intend to do. The best bet would be a petition.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Good. I'm very happy for you, but, that is not breeding.

How would you describe the work that Drex has done - bee improvement? Does bee breeding necessarily involve the introduction to the apiary of fresh stock to improve genetic diversity?

I'm not trying to trip you up here - I'm genuinely interested in the differences in the terms used by people heavily involved in the process.

CVB

 

[B+.]

How would you describe the work that Drex has done - bee improvement? Does bee breeding necessarily involve the introduction to the apiary of fresh stock to improve genetic diversity?

No. He has no control over the drones his virgin queens are mating with and isn't really trying to influence the next generation, except by continually culling the worst of them. At best, he can exercise a rudimentary form of maternal selection, but, without control of the drones, he'll be constantly working with mongrels. He seems content with that.

Of course, you could buy in good queens from a breeder who has the means to test, select and propagate good queens but, this will only buy you a couple of generations of above average performance (depending on what cooperative effort there is going on with your neighbours). For some, this is better since they benefit from better stock at a reasonable cost.
Someone has to do the testing, selection and propagation work though. It is a time consuming process and not everyone has the time/dedication to do it.
If you had a large number of colonies, you could prevent inbreeding depression by rotating the breeding lines. However, you probably wouldn't have the time to test them all. Therefore, a better approach is to divide the testing work between a group of people (In BeeBreed, up to a third of the colonies we test were bred by other breeders - we all test each others queens).

 

[mbc]

How would you describe the work that Drex has done - bee improvement? Does bee breeding necessarily involve the introduction to the apiary of fresh stock to improve genetic diversity?

I'm not trying to trip you up here - I'm genuinely interested in the differences in the terms used by people heavily involved in the process.

CVB

I doubt very much if any of the world's bee breeding experts would dismiss years of careful selection and propagation to improve a stock as not bee breeding, it takes a certain type of individual to do something fairly exclusive (AI or island mating) for a year or so then set the bar so that any beekeepers who don't do this (99.9%) don't cut the mustard and are below his exalted level of bee breeder.
Bee breeding starts with choosing which cells to allow to hatch, evolves with raising cells from selected mothers and choosing the best daughters to continue the line, steps up again when one starts ruthlessly culling any below par, moves up a gear again when drone flooding and cooperation with neighbours gets involved and AI or island mating is only the very top tip of the iceberg.
All imho of course.

 

[drex]

Drones get all their genetic material from their mothers. Improve the mothers and you must improve the drones. However, I do realise there is nothin to stop my virgins mating with next doors horrid drones. If I was not surrounded by so many beekeepers, then it would be feasible to work as a collective community. Anyway, I am enjoying my beekeeping. Queen rearing has added a new dimension and I can work with my stock. It does not matter if you call it breeding , improvement , or just murdering queens, it is within the capabilities of the 99.9% of bee keepers mentioned above and is sustainable, unlike buying in good genetics that I would lose in a generation or two. Each to their own..

 

[mbc]

Drones get all their genetic material from their mothers. Improve the mothers and you must improve the drones. However, I do realise there is nothin to stop my virgins mating with next doors horrid drones. If I was not surrounded by so many beekeepers, then it would be feasible to work as a collective community. Anyway, I am enjoying my beekeeping. Queen rearing has added a new dimension and I can work with my stock. It does not matter if you call it breeding , improvement , or just murdering queens, it is within the capabilities of the 99.9% of bee keepers mentioned above and is sustainable, unlike buying in good genetics that I would lose in a generation or two. Each to their own..

And is also long term sustainable and really easy to pass the baton and spread within the wider beekeeping community to the enjoyment of all.

 

[B+.]

Drones get all their genetic material from their mothers. Improve the mothers and you must improve the drones. However, I do realise there is nothin to stop my virgins mating with next doors horrid drones. If I was not surrounded by so many beekeepers, then it would be feasible to work as a collective community. Anyway, I am enjoying my beekeeping. Queen rearing has added a new dimension and I can work with my stock. It does not matter if you call it breeding , improvement , or just murdering queens, it is within the capabilities of the 99.9% of bee keepers mentioned above and is sustainable, unlike buying in good genetics that I would lose in a generation or two. Each to their own..

I was asked a simple question and I tried to answer it simply. Nothing I said was intended to diminish what you do. I agree with you completely when you say anyone with a ready supply of queens can do the same. However, they will only perform at, or around, the "average" level for your area.
The aim of a breeding programme is to continually raise the "average" by producing lines that perform at a much higher level (a fact that the BBKA seem incapable of understanding). If enough of these queens were introduced to an area, their drones would substantially increase the "average" for that area (as you said; improving the standard of the drones improves the standard of the progeny for any queens mating with them). You can't just look at a single years performance though (because the environmental factors (weather, nectar and pollen producing plants available, etc) vary from year to year). You have to look at it over a period of time (e.g. a 5-year moving average).
I agree: each to their own.

 

[B+.]

it takes a certain type of individual to do something fairly exclusive (AI or island mating) for a year or so then set the bar so that any beekeepers who don't do this (99.9%) don't cut the mustard and are below his exalted level of bee breeder.

I have two points to make:
1. This thread is about the BBKA Bee Breeding Certificate. Please confine your comments to that.
2. You incorrectly assume I've only been doing this for a year or so. In fact, I was one of the founder members of BIIG (which emerged from IINGRID - which I was also a part of). That was about 15 years ago, but, my breeding records extend back even further.
I am not setting a bar. I am simply explaining what I do and how I do it. Others are free to adopt it or do their own thing. However, in the spirit of improving what we all do, I occasionally point out areas that could be improved. If my own methods could be improved, I would change them.

 

[For want of a better word]

I was asked a simple question and I tried to answer it simply. Nothing I said was intended to diminish what you do. I agree with you completely when you say anyone with a ready supply of queens can do the same. However, they will only perform at, or around, the "average" level for your area.
The aim of a breeding programme is to continually raise the "average" by producing lines that perform at a much higher level (a fact that the BBKA seem incapable of understanding). If enough of these queens were introduced to an area, their drones would substantially increase the "average" for that area (as you said; improving the standard of the drones improves the standard of the progeny for any queens mating with them). You can't just look at a single years performance though (because the environmental factors (weather, nectar and pollen producing plants available, etc) vary from year to year). You have to look at it over a period of time (e.g. a 5-year moving average).
I agree: each to their own.

From our own perspective [as a bee breeding and bee improvement group] in raising better queens (Cornish Amm in our case) B+ has been one of the shoulders on which we stand..... attempting to mirror his successes with Amc and adopting much the same methodology.... We can do little else in a vast pool of non native imports!

I best guessed that AI would not go down well when some of the exam moners appeared to be Soil Association / organic devotees and gracefully withdrew from the whole disastrous debarkle... my choice.
Yeghes da

 

[Hebeegeebee]

When I look back at the bees I had when I started beekeeping, about eight years ago, I cringe, especially when I look at their temperament. Mongrels then and mongrels now. However by culling aggressively and selecting from the best, I now have bees of good temperament, adequately productive, that all appear to be thriving, rather than just surviving. I cannot remember when I last had a winter loss.
I will leave breeding to the professionals like B+ and HM etc. I keep my bees for fun. Thankfully I do not have to depend on them for my living.

This is essentially what I do; I rarely get a colony with bad temperament and any in the spring are dealt with. It's a sustainable passtime.
I cannot determine whether my bees are 'adequately' productive as Drex mentions or good or bad as I have not had other bees in my apiary so I can't compare. However by selecting the maternal line and 'moistening' rather than flooding the area with my drones, then some slow improvement should be achievable/has been achieved. I guess this is what the BBKA are wanting to encourage. It's not the same as the sort of work B+ does and if that's the aim of the cert, then it's not the cert for him. (B+, it would have been good for you to know that before you took part!).

7 or 8 years ago I had colonies that would swarm on 5 frames of brood. This year, one colony at my out-apiary swarmed out of 13 (and with a clipped wing of the queen, that was easily dealt with as she was under the hive with a pile of bees). I cannot say that my bees are as shown in B+ video, however at home, my colonies are in my front garden for the postman to walk past every day; they have to be well-behaved.

 

[B+.]

attempting to mirror his successes with Amc and adopting much the same methodology.... We can do little else in a vast pool of non native imports!

Do you see the irony in what you're saying there Icanhopit? ;-)

up to 1/3 of my test colonies come from other breeders (which is deliberate: it ensures that I am scoring my colonies (and theirs) consistently)....this is another point the BBKA assessors failed to grasp

 

[For want of a better word]

Do you see the irony in what you're saying there Icanhopit? ;-)

up to 1/3 of my test colonies come from other breeders (which is deliberate: it ensures that I am scoring my colonies (and theirs) consistently)....this is another point the BBKA assessors failed to grasp

Yes indeed... we can all get along quite well together on our own little islands... having a common language helps!

Almost colony as opposed to apiary beekeeping!

Yeghes da

 

[B+.]

I cannot say that my bees are as shown in B+ video, however at home, my colonies are in my front garden for the postman to walk past every day; they have to be well-behaved.

In Germany (Bavaria), they have a law - The Bavarian Animal Breeding Act of 10/08/1990. Article 13 states that "Beekeeping establishments which place more than 50 queens per year on the market must subject their breeding bees to suitability and performance testing". I wonder how many queen suppliers would be in business if such a law existed here.

 

[For want of a better word]

In Germany (Bavaria), they have a law - The Bavarian Animal Breeding Act of 10/08/1990. Article 13 states that "Beekeeping establishments which place more than 50 queens per year on the market must subject their breeding bees to suitability and performance testing". I wonder how many queen suppliers would be in business if such a law existed here.

Sometimes I am so glad my father was a WW11 RAF pilot!

Nos da

 

[B+.]

Sometimes I am so glad my father was a WW11 RAF pilot!

WW2 ended in 1945 icanhopit. I realise that its difficult for some people to let go of the past (my grandfather was an MP sent into Belsen camp ahead of the advancing allies and later, at the end of the war, assigned to guard the allied side of the Brandenburg gate), but, the Bavarian law seems like a good idea to me. It ensures a high quality product while we have no safeguards at all (buyer beware).

 

[Poly Hive]

There I was thinking the Faulty Towers mentality was in the past. But no...

More to the point, the fact that law is on their statute book says they take bees seriously.

Now I wonder why it was that the only part of the UK that left my wife and I feeling unwelcome and uncomfortable was darkest Wales? Odd that.

PH

 

[Swarm]

There I was thinking the Faulty Towers mentality was in the past. But no...

More to the point, the fact that law is on their statute book says they take bees seriously.

Now I wonder why it was that the only part of the UK that left my wife and I feeling unwelcome and uncomfortable was darkest Wales? Odd that.

PH

Eh?? You'll have to explain that one, what an odd statement.

 

[colinc]

I’ve had similar in Wales in some areas where the conversation switches to Welsh when you walk in. Not endemic and not indicative of a general trend but I have noticed it 3 or 4 times in different places. It was very educational for the locals the time we were with a native Welsh speaker. They were incredibly rude about our group and it was unprovoked other than our presence as non regulars but they switched back to speaking English after our friend gave them a mouthful in Welsh. They were chatting to us and reasonable by the end of the evening. Not often the English can accuse others of wanton racism


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