BBKA Bee Breeding certificate.

[B+.]

the majority of membership just follow like good little sheep.... this is politics?

Nos da

I was referring to the 6 million euro funding that Prof Bienefeld has managed to get from the EU to fund his ideas.
As has been pointed out before, most BBKA members are hobbyists with a couple of hives. If you look at the standard of posts on the BBKA forum, you'll see that most are beginners with weird ideas.

 

[B+.]

If you are breeding bees from mongrels and reject the idea that importing bees is a good thing, then surely this question is superfluous as asking it suggests that mongrels might not be the answer...to whatever the question is..

Let's get one thing straight: the difference between uncontrolled queen rearing and bee breeding is that you intend to pass heritable characteristics to the progeny, ideally improving each successive generation (paraphrasing Prof Ruttner). You can't do that unless you control both sides of the pedigree, generation after generation. Rearing mongrels is not bee breeding, no matter how the BBKA try to dress it up.
The new spec is really not that much better than the draft. There are still several inconsistencies like the one you mention.

 

[kevrhcfag]

Its not bee breeding its just Queen Rearing no matter how you dress it up.

As stated its only breeding if you have control over both sides of the pedigree.
As a line you need sister queens to compare/ test and enhance particular traits, not possible with open mating.

It would be like the kennel club accepting pedigrees from a breeder that knew the dogs mother but threw it outside in the street when it was in season in the hope it gets mated with something decent.

 

[For want of a better word]

Let's get one thing straight: the difference between uncontrolled queen rearing and bee breeding is that you intend to pass heritable characteristics to the progeny, ideally improving each successive generation (paraphrasing Prof Ruttner). You can't do that unless you control both sides of the pedigree, generation after generation. Rearing mongrels is not bee breeding, no matter how the BBKA try to dress it up.
The new spec is really not that much better than the draft. There are still several inconsistencies like the one you mention.

Selective breeding of queens with the traits that suit the beekeeper has been the criteria accepted for generations, unfortunately not fully understood by some who would rear queens.
Quite why drone flooding or AI is necessary seems to have been overlooked.... indeed this new certificate would appear to be jumping onto a bandwagon?

Nos da

Nos da

 

[B+.]

Quite why drone flooding or AI is necessary seems to have been overlooked.... indeed this new certificate would appear to be jumping onto a bandwagon?

Drone flooding and land based mating stations can influence mating, but, only II and island mating stations can guarantee mating with the certainty breeders need.

 

[wightbees]

Maybe look at it as a way of getting people involved rather than scare them off with AI ... Just my thoughts

 

[For want of a better word]

Maybe look at it as a way of getting people involved rather than scare them off with AI ... Just my thoughts

Nothing to be "scared off" with... but a very basic understanding of the importance of the drone in mating and bee improvement seems to have been discounted.
As B+ says AI is certainty.... isolated island mating a probability....

more to queen breeding and bee improvement than merely producing queens!

Nos da

 

[wightbees]

You got it right there, it should be called Bee improvement from the sound of it? I not bothered reading any of to be honest!

 

[For want of a better word]

You got it right there, it should be called Bee improvement from the sound of it? I not bothered reading any of to be honest!

No... the focus is on producing mongrel queens without any thought for improvement!

Nos da

 

[madasafish]

No... the focus is on producing mongrel queens without any thought for improvement!

Nos da

It all seems rather similar to trying to raise a winner for Ascot by starting breeding carthorses...

 

[B+.]

Maybe look at it as a way of getting people involved rather than scare them off with AI ... Just my thoughts

What you should understand is that II is just a technique that uses some specialised equipment.
You can mess things up just as easily with II as you can with random mating unless you know what you're doing. This is where care over the choice of drones or, more precisely, the choice of queens (1b mothers and 4a grandmothers) that will produce the drones comes in.These have to be chosen just as carefully as the 2a mother of virgin queens. Even here, producing queens using II is not really breeding without a "closed loop" involving testing and selection of the progeny. How else can you know what to breed from and what results to expect?

 

[alldigging]

Drone flooding and land based mating stations can influence mating, but, only II and island mating stations can guarantee mating with the certainty breeders need.

March 2016 Module 7 exam
Q13
(c) give four methods that could be used to maximise the chances of a virgin queen mating with drones of desirable characteristics.

 

[drex]

When I look back at the bees I had when I started beekeeping, about eight years ago, I cringe, especially when I look at their temperament. Mongrels then and mongrels now. However by culling aggressively and selecting from the best, I now have bees of good temperament, adequately productive, that all appear to be thriving, rather than just surviving. I cannot remember when I last had a winter loss.
I will leave breeding to the professionals like B+ and HM etc. I keep my bees for fun. Thankfully I do not have to depend on them for my living.

 

[B+.]

March 2016 Module 7 exam
Q13
(c) give four methods that could be used to maximise the chances of a virgin queen mating with drones of desirable characteristics.

There are two questions there; the selection of drones with desirable characteristics (which can only be from a homogeneous population), and, the best method of bringing them together so that mating can occur.
In any case, multiple mating in an uncontrolled environment means it can only ever influence (not control) the result

 

[Swarm]

When I look back at the bees I had when I started beekeeping, about eight years ago, I cringe, especially when I look at their temperament. Mongrels then and mongrels now. However by culling aggressively and selecting from the best, I now have bees of good temperament, adequately productive, that all appear to be thriving, rather than just surviving. I cannot remember when I last had a winter loss.
I will leave breeding to the professionals like B+ and HM etc. I keep my bees for fun. Thankfully I do not have to depend on them for my living.

But you've had results and they reckon you can't achieve them.

 

[B+.]

But you've had results and they reckon you can't achieve them.

DrEx is making a subjective statement which I have no problem with. I doubt he means that his queens are as docile as this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZ0ZmN-W8M) or as productive as this (https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3832). He simply meant that he had removed the worst excesses so he was content with the result.
You shouldn't confuse this with breeding (I am sure that DrEx knows enough genetics not to).

 

[Swarm]

DrEx is making a subjective statement which I have no problem with. I doubt he means that his queens are as docile as this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZ0ZmN-W8M) or as productive as this (https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3832). He simply meant that he had removed the worst excesses so he was content with the result.
You shouldn't confuse this with breeding (I am sure that DrEx knows enough genetics not to).

But a result none the less.
The links mean nothing, I had to piece together a hive yesterday, knocked off its stand by sheep and upside down at the bottom of a small bank. Frames scattered in one box and main part of the colony, clustering around the bottom bars of the other and the roof and feeder in another pile. My visit was only intended to take the feeder off and come home. Apart from a faint whiff of bananas as I recovered the brood box, the bees were incredibly well behaved. No attempt to sting, no pinging, they were in the air but that was merely confusion and as I cracked on with a wrecking bar to get a hasty fence up, the congregation outside the hive got smaller as they sorted themselves out and they totally ignored me. I've just returned from a quick check on them and giving them some invert. As far as I'm concerned, these bees would be a credit to anyone.

 

[B+.]

As far as I'm concerned, these bees would be a credit to anyone.

Good. I'm very happy for you, but, that is not breeding.

 

[Swarm]

Good. I'm very happy for you, but, that is not breeding.

Precisely my point, posting links is meaningless.
I'm interested what you intend to do now. Are you going to withdraw your BBKA membership or ballot members to change the format or what?

 

[B+.]

Precisely my point, posting links is meaningless.

The links illustrated my point about what can be acheived with proper breeding. You seem unable. or unwilling, to comprehend that.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see"