Asian Hornet APP

[Karol]

Maybe I've missed something here, but come spring why would you not want to trap mated queens who are looking to set up home?

How's it going in Perpignan? Did you have a bad year with velutina?

Doesn't it strike you as odd that with all of the espoused spring trapping going on the situation is only getting worse? Doesn't it also strike you as odd that you've seen a fall in numbers of indigenous species?

The situation you have is in meaningful part down to spring trapping. It hasn't worked and isn't working. That should give you a little inkling to set aside your skepticism of elainemary and the NBU. By all means continue propagating your problem in your own locale but don't equate what you have with where we are in the UK with velutina. If spring trapping is introduced en-masse in the UK it will I fear have the opposite effect just as it has done in France.

My best advice to you Richard is to put away your spring traps and instead use FC which will definitely specifically target velutina and will encourage indigenous vespine species to recover and compete with velutina again. Use FC religiously in spring and summer before sexuals are produced until your local population of velutina collapses which it will if you apply FC correctly.

 

[Wilco]

Now I've never gone into the depths of statistics here but still, this seems like a very lame argument to me.

• An average AH nest consumes just over 11kg of insects in a season - 6.92kg are not bees
• 38% are bees, 30% are flies, 20% are wasps and the rest a real diverse range of insects - a total of 159 species have been identified.
• in my area I would guestimate that my bycatch is tiny - say less than 5% (& really I suspect it's less that 1%, but I've never counted as it's so small.
  • my Jabeprod traps have only caught AH so far (one season)
  • I've seen the occasional European Hornet in traps and flies seems to come and go at will from the Vespacatch traps I use. When I top up these traps occasionally I trap half a dozen or so bees in the first hour or so.
  • my plastic bottles (mixture of beer, wine & syrup) catch mainly AH, but when I've emptied them out I do find some wasps although I've never seen any enter.....clearly they do though

From my experience it's simply not possible that the bycatch I see outweighs the predation that the AH will make if left to their own devices.

Over March 2023 I trapped around 40 to 50 AH's. I didn't split these out queens vs workers however, it's fair to say there was both in there. Based on what I experienced this year if I managed to prevent more colonies from becoming established then it was well worth it. I should add I never saw any AH at this time when I was around the hives...obviously they were though.

I'd be happy to see some figures / research justifying why trapping mated queens in early spring is a bad idea? I can' get my head around the statement from elainemary that "there is no evidence that trapping makes any difference to the growth of population". Every queen killed in spring could save 6.92kg of non-bee species.....surely for those so concerned with bycatch that should make quite an impact no? Not to mention the 4.18kg of bees saved.

You're in an area with high V.v. numbers. We are not. It's not directly comparable.

Another thought (conjecture) perhaps the reason your bycatch was small was because the V.v. have decimated them. Again, not where we're at yet.

At present the NBU here are saying not to trap but to monitor. End of discussion for now as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Wilco]

I have already stated I stopped trapping years ago due to catching moths , European hornets etc.
I have already referenced a make of trap which lets wasps etc escape and targets Asian Hornets.

A non trapping system is unlikely o work once AH spreads .. the numbers are on the side of AH. Especially in thinly populated countryside with lots of woods.

Yet your post which I quoted contains you stating you're going to be trapping in the spring.

We're not at that point yet. Listen to the NBU.

 

[fian]

We're not at that point yet. Listen to the NBU.

In my comment #78 there is an NBU guide for beekeepers, you can read it and explain to us how the trap is compatible with monitoring, not for me who already know that I am from Galicia but for the majority of users who are British.

 

[madasafish]

BBKA Magazine January 2024 Mid magazine Asian Hornet all year guide
Use Selective trapping in Spring and Autumn

 

[Karol]

BBKA Magazine January 2024 Mid magazine Asian Hornet all year guide
Use Selective trapping in Spring and Autumn

Selective not specific. Beyond naive stupidity. Using such traps now when the probability of catching any velutina queens is for all intents and purposes zero is ecologically irresponsible because all it will do is create the space for velutina to invade at outbreak points. If you want velutina to become established go right ahead.

Monitoring doesn't have to be 24/7. Why? Because as a wasp velutina will follow wasp trait behaviours one of which is programmed feeding. Set a robust bait station and if velutina is there and finds it, it will continue to return to it and will be evident at whatever time it's inspected. IF velutina arrives calls the NBU and let them track, trace and destroy any nests before sexuals are produced.

 

[Karol]

In my comment #78 there is an NBU guide for beekeepers, you can read it and explain to us how the trap is compatible with monitoring, not for me who already know that I am from Galicia but for the majority of users who are British.

The guide is from 2021 and out dated.

One can create monitoring stations from traps by removing restrictions that would otherwise catch visiting vespines. Use of sponges, absorbent tissue or cloth is important to prevent accidental drowing.

It's important not to kill velutina at monitoring stations. Reason being that scouting wasps will recruit nest mates which will indicate the size of any problem and importantly provide more individuals to track back to the nest.

 

[elainemary]

Now I've never gone into the depths of statistics here but still, this seems like a very lame argument to me.

• An average AH nest consumes just over 11kg of insects in a season - 6.92kg are not bees
• 38% are bees, 30% are flies, 20% are wasps and the rest a real diverse range of insects - a total of 159 species have been identified.
• in my area I would guestimate that my bycatch is tiny - say less than 5% (& really I suspect it's less that 1%, but I've never counted as it's so small.
  • my Jabeprod traps have only caught AH so far (one season)
  • I've seen the occasional European Hornet in traps and flies seems to come and go at will from the Vespacatch traps I use. When I top up these traps occasionally I trap half a dozen or so bees in the first hour or so.
  • my plastic bottles (mixture of beer, wine & syrup) catch mainly AH, but when I've emptied them out I do find some wasps although I've never seen any enter.....clearly they do though

From my experience it's simply not possible that the bycatch I see outweighs the predation that the AH will make if left to their own devices.

Over March 2023 I trapped around 40 to 50 AH's. I didn't split these out queens vs workers however, it's fair to say there was both in there. Based on what I experienced this year if I managed to prevent more colonies from becoming established then it was well worth it. I should add I never saw any AH at this time when I was around the hives...obviously they were though.

I'd be happy to see some figures / research justifying why trapping mated queens in early spring is a bad idea? I can' get my head around the statement from elainemary that "there is no evidence that trapping makes any difference to the growth of population". Every queen killed in spring could save 6.92kg of non-bee species.....surely for those so concerned with bycatch that should make quite an impact no? Not to mention the 4.18kg of bees saved.

Please don’t shoot the messenger!

Before I went to the conference last weekend my knowledge was light. I gave myself a good talking to and became educated.

My comments are repeats from the experts at the NBU, the French, Spanish, Jersey , Guernsey and scientific experts. Not a personal anecdote or theory of mine. I trust experts I don’t trust anecdotes.

I will not comment or repeat further, as it’s too exhausting. I will wait for the NBU to release their statement and advice ahead of the next season and suggest respectfully you do the same.

We all want to beat this invasion but we don’t want to plight our beneficial insects any more than the Armageddon already created by man. We’ve lost 92% of our wildflower meadows, c 50% of our hedgerows since the WW2. The German research a couple of years back indicated an insect apocalypse. We need to look at the bigger picture - a third of our food is pollinated by beneficial insects - that’s even more important than honey for our own needs.

Enough said by me now,” I’m out” as a Dragon's Den player would say!

It’s been a useful thread to start, I will end by saying please those of you, like me, that didn’t have the APP on their phone, please download it

Thankyou for all your contributions.

 

[Moobee]

In

Unfortunately your gut feel is flawed. Expert speakers from both Jersey and Guernsey using specially adapted traps, revealed there is no evidence that trapping makes any difference to the growth of population. Very few hornets were caught. With a trap spacing of 500m across the whole island of Guernsey and 262 volunteers resulted in only c 7 hornets being trapped!
The strong message by all speakers is don’t trap, watch your hives instead. Wait for the protocol.

Unfortunately like abuse of varroa strips some will choose to ignore the advice. We have an insect armegeddon on our hands why add to it?

Postscript after I wrote this . Don’t want to upset or slight you in any way @Moobee. Your heart is in the right place I just feel so passionate about supporting all our pollinators. Unfortunately V velutina is the wrong insect in the wrong place and it’s not actually their fault this has happened. Man has cocked up big style.

Don't worry, i'm not upset (or panicking as some suggest) just very worried and frustrated that the pace of information and/or advice is so slow when potentially AH queens could be out and about next month. I have some traps designed by one of our BKA members which reduces bycatch as they have an escape route out which the wasps/hornets don't seem able to navigate. I used these in autumn and checking the catch, caught mostly wasps (which was helpful as they were numerous) and some flies (green & bluebottles mostly) but hardly any bees, bumblebees, moths, hoverflies or other pollinators. No native hornets either as we don't appear to have them locally.
Just one AH nest will eat an estimated 12kg of insects and I read that they are not that fussy, taking spiders, flies, caterpillars, anything they can find - that really is a armageddon of insects and one I would prefer to avoid.
I am also passionate about protecting our indigenous species but if these buggers get a foothold, it won't just affect our bees, it will impact up the foodchain with birds, reptiles and amphibians which feed on insects being affected and then larger mammals which prey on these. I'm sure I read somewhere about bird populations being decimated in some places by lack of insect forage.
After seeing this discussed at the National Honey Show and reading a lot about how the French beekeepers are trying to cope with it, spring trapping seems the most logical approach, ie cut them off at source. I am just across from the IOW and have a warm maritime climate so potentially prime AH territory. Reading the thread, most seem against it and I am approaching this with a light hand - try one trap in February and monitor the catch. They are not kill traps as they have a mesh floor so it's easy to release bycatch btw.

 

[Karol]

Don't worry, i'm not upset (or panicking as some suggest) just very worried and frustrated that the pace of information and/or advice is so slow when potentially AH queens could be out and about next month. <snip>

Unlikely but I hope they are (if they're about).

That way they'll expend their reserves and die from starvation.......unless of course they're fed too early. Ohhh! Another reason why spring monitoring is naively foolish.

 

[fian]

Monitoring stations can be created from traps by removing restrictions that would otherwise trap visiting vespines" is part of your quote, so there may or may not be traps that reduce bycatch.
"...unless, of course, they are fed too early. Oh! Another reason spring tracking is naively silly." If the velutina queen has been captured and dies, it doesn't matter if she does so with a full stomach.
Furthermore, the size of a primary nest is similar to a fist, which means that it can be hidden anywhere. Furthermore, at the beginning the number of workers is very small, so monitoring may not bear fruit.
In Galicia, velutina queens rise 2 months before any other vespina, so early trapping is safe.
Finally, regarding CF, if the nest is not removed, the product remains in the environment and any other species can be poisoned by it.
I'm going to say it clearly, I doubt that NBU establishes
another guide different from that of 2021 if there is no change in the invasion conditions of Vespa velutina. At most I could make a new recommendation in Kent due to the large number of nests located but that would be admitting that the system carried out was not effective.

 

[RichardK]

How's it going in Perpignan? Did you have a bad year with velutina?

Doesn't it strike you as odd that with all of the espoused spring trapping going on the situation is only getting worse? Doesn't it also strike you as odd that you've seen a fall in numbers of indigenous species?

The situation you have is in meaningful part down to spring trapping. It hasn't worked and isn't working. That should give you a little inkling to set aside your skepticism of elainemary and the NBU. By all means continue propagating your problem in your own locale but don't equate what you have with where we are in the UK with velutina. If spring trapping is introduced en-masse in the UK it will I fear have the opposite effect just as it has done in France.

My best advice to you Richard is to put away your spring traps and instead use FC which will definitely specifically target velutina and will encourage indigenous vespine species to recover and compete with velutina again. Use FC religiously in spring and summer before sexuals are produced until your local population of velutina collapses which it will if you apply FC correctly.

Personally yes, 2023 was a bad year for VV. I would guestimate 50% more than last year. I'm not aware of a decline in the number of indigenous species that you refer to - could you be more specific as to what you're referring to please?

Let me give you examples of three apiaries in the my broad area, all of whom trap in spring. A: 6 miles east of Perpignan by the coast, B: 12 miles west of Perpignan and C: 24 miles west of Perpignan (me). Neither A or B have suffered from VV to any real degree during 2023. Site B trapped extensively in Spring finding fruit trees their best trapping locations. I am located in a village with forest to one side (140° of coverage) starting 100m from the apiary.

Was trapping a failure? Did trapping work? I still can't get my head around how it could have positively impacted the population of VV. So for me, yes it helped. For site B to go from such a large spring catch to little to nothing come August thru December was very encouraging. Had I not trapped (C) who knows how many VV nests I'd have faced in my locale and potentially what seemed bad could have been catastrophic.

Absolutely this year I'll be targeting VV with FC (Fipronil custard). I'll also be trapping. I don't really care how I kill the queen & if I can get her / some early on before sufficient numbers arrive to start hitting them with FC then why wouldn't I?

I must be really missing the point you're trying to make here. Please explain why spring trapping could make the situation with VV worse?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'm going to say it clearly,

always a first time

 

[RichardK]

Please don’t shoot the messenger!

Before I went to the conference last weekend my knowledge was light. I gave myself a good talking to and became educated.

My comments are repeats from the experts at the NBU, the French, Spanish, Jersey , Guernsey and scientific experts. Not a personal anecdote or theory of mine. I trust experts I don’t trust anecdotes.

I will not comment or repeat further, as it’s too exhausting. I will wait for the NBU to release their statement and advice ahead of the next season and suggest respectfully you do the same.

We all want to beat this invasion but we don’t want to plight our beneficial insects any more than the Armageddon already created by man. We’ve lost 92% of our wildflower meadows, c 50% of our hedgerows since the WW2. The German research a couple of years back indicated an insect apocalypse. We need to look at the bigger picture - a third of our food is pollinated by beneficial insects - that’s even more important than honey for our own needs.

Enough said by me now,” I’m out” as a Dragon's Den player would say!

It’s been a useful thread to start, I will end by saying please those of you, like me, that didn’t have the APP on their phone, please download it

Thankyou for all your contributions.

I understand where you are coming from, & wasn't trying to have a go at you personally - my apologies if that's how it came across.

In the figures I mentioned above, c. 7kg of the average insect catch by an Asian Hornet nest are not bees. Apparently a fly weighs c. 12mg, a wasp 250mg & a European Hornet 477mg. That's 583,000 flies, 28,000 wasps or 14,675 European Hornets. That, or some combination of is what you're saving (bees aside) by preventing one Asian Hornet nest from existing if you kill it in spring time. Bycatch in my experience is somewhat lower than those figures .

Did they explain why you wouldn't / shouldn't do it? And why / how it could exacerbate the problem if you did?

 

[The Poot]

As I understand it, the theory is that by killing queens in the Spring, leaving a smaller number alive, they raise larger nests as competition has been reduced. The outcome being the same amount of hornets around. (Karol please correct me if this is wrong).
My confusion is this: if there are six hornet queens that successfully overwinter in my area and I catch four of them by trapping and by doing so encourage two large nests to develop, it would be a simpler job then, in Summer, to FC just two hornets and clear the area, than try to FC hornets from more nests.
?????

 

[RichardK]

As I understand it, the theory is that by killing queens in the Spring, leaving a smaller number alive, they raise larger nests as competition has been reduced. The outcome being the same amount of hornets around. (Karol please correct me if this is wrong).
My confusion is this: if there are six hornet queens that successfully overwinter in my area and I catch four of them by trapping and by doing so encourage two large nests to develop, it would be a simpler job then, in Summer, to FC just two hornets and clear the area, than try to FC hornets from more nests.
?????

Thanks for that - I can see where Karol was coming from then (if that's what he meant).

As I understand it they are territorial so in theory.... there should only be 'x' per square mile anyhow.

I take your point on 2 being easier to kill than 6 too.

 

[fian]

As I understand it, the theory is that by killing queens in the Spring, leaving a smaller number alive, they raise larger nests as competition has been reduced. The outcome being the same amount of hornets around. (Karol please correct me if this is wrong).
My confusion is this: if there are six hornet queens that successfully overwinter in my area and I catch four of them by trapping and by doing so encourage two large nests to develop, it would be a simpler job then, in Summer, to FC just two hornets and clear the area, than try to FC hornets from more nests.
?????

In an ecosystem there is always a concept that is the carrying capacity, that is, the limit number of individuals/colonies that can coexist in the same environment.
If in your example there are 6 nests but the carrying capacity is 8, it does not matter whether 2 or 4 queens survive, this will not affect either the size or the ability to produce fertile offspring.

 

[The Poot]

If in your example there are 6 nests but the carrying capacity is 8, it does not matter whether 2 or 4 queens survive, this will not affect either the size or the ability to produce fertile offspring.

But rhubarb and custard would.

 

[Karol]

I appreciate there is a lot of confusion but that's because we have individuals posting from different territories without regard to the topographical and ecological differences between the territories and without regard to the prevailing conditions of infestation.

The issue of competition is competition between indigenous vespines (UK) / vespids (Med) and the invasive velutina. Any spring trapping which results in destruction of even small numbers of indigenous vespines/vespids will enhance the chances of velutina queen survival and nest maturation. It is all to do with population level numbers rather than individual experience.

Think of it this way. Spring trapping in the UK will create pockets of opportunity for velutina to exploit resulting in 'ink blots' of infestation. The more ink blots the more likelihood of sexuals encountering sexuals from other nests and successfully mating.

The UK is not naturally ecologically conducive to velutina. It's important that beekeepers don't unwittingly make it more conducive by unnecessarily removing vespine competition which will simply have the effect of increasing resources for velutina to establish itself.

The situation in the UK is very very different from that in continental Europe.

My comments to Richard were not at a personal level. They were at a territorial population level. Velutina has exploded in France because the wrong strategies were adopted concentrating on trapping and hive protection instead of species specific eradication.

Species specific eradication has the benefit of tipping conditions in favour of indigenous vespines both in terms of resource and in terms of direct interaction. Velutina will kill indigenous vespines at a favourable but not absolute rate meaning that indigenous populations have to be numerically superior to stand any chance of survival. Spring trapping of bycatch, however small that bycatch, will always favour velutina because it is a top line predator.

To respond to Richard's question. Perpignan is vespid territory, i.e. has a native mix of vespines and polistes wasps. Polistes wasps are simply not a problem for hives as they specialise in hunting smaller flying insects such as mosquitos. Polistes wasps which have open multiqueen colonies are easy prey for velutina and will be the first mass casualties to velutina but because they tend only to be noticed around recreational water activities, they aren't missed by the local populus. Polistes wasps are an integral line of defence against the spread of mosquito borne diseases.

Velutina will appear in February in Perpignan because it is a warmer Med climate. However, such unqualified comments are unhelpful to beekeepers in the UK who may take that as a cue to taking early spring trapping action. Perpignan has the disadvantage of being ecologically conducive to velutina so the issue of competition is of a different order and not so finely balanced as in the UK. The balance between vespines and polistes in Perpgnan is such that one would not expect much in the way of vespine bycatch anyway. So any bycatch that you have will have vastly greater impact. Why? Because polistes wasps can't resist velutina in the same way they resist smaller vespines. They can't withstand velutina attacking their open nests. Moreover vespine populations are naturally less abundant which accentuates the impact of even the smallest bycatch.

So Richard, you are suffering from the collective approach adopted in France which has not worked. That is the point I am making. My recommendation is to focus on species specific eradication and encourage local vespid populations to recover. Until such time as that strategy is adopted universally you will be slated to continue with local eradication which needs to be maintained even when numbers of velutina crash otherwise they will rebound.

 

[fian]

Any beekeeper should take a look at this article in which it analyzes possible ecological niches.
It is curious but this summer's incidence in Kent seems to match well with the article that predicts a red spot (high incidence) in the southeast of England.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure...der-current-climate-conditions_fig1_359563642