DNA research on Irish AMM.

Beefriendly · May 9, 2018

foghornleghorn said:
The approach now will most definitely be to look for a ban on imports and keeping of other strains of bees to preserve the purity.

Whilst Eire remains in the EU that will likely prove difficult as will likely be seen as barrier to free trade. I'm not 100% on this but I think you can only ban animal imports from areas within the EU that are currently suffering from disease, i.e for Bees an AFB affected area or avian flu areas for chickens etc.
Bans don't seem to do much good as bees can be sent in the post quite innocuously.

B+. · May 9, 2018

foghornleghorn said:
The approach now will most definitely be to look for a ban on imports and keeping of other strains of bees to preserve the purity. But as well as the 100 queens imported annually, there is a few thousand hives at least of mongrel bees which have been totally ignored.
It does show up that it's mainly an anti import/alternative breed piece...

IMHO, conservation by itself isn't enough. Beekeepers should improve what they have or it will gradually deteriorate.

foghornleghorn · May 9, 2018

B+. said:
IMHO, conservation by itself isn't enough. Beekeepers should improve what they have or it will gradually deteriorate.

Swarm · May 9, 2018

Quis Custodiet said:
Have you ever posted anything useful or constructive on any forum, irrespective of whether it was an open or closed forum? I doubt it. But do give it a try, you may well be surprised at the result!

Have a read over your recent bout of bigotry, is it that sort of constructive comment you mean? Maybe with a bit of racism thrown in?

Finman · May 9, 2018

.
I read the main things from the report.

Ireland was isolated to own isle 6500 years ago. There were natural Black Bees in the Isle.

During last 100 years lots of beehives and queens have been imported. France has been one origin, and it can be seen in genes.

*****
The research says that local bees are best. I say that is the biggest rubbish what I have seen in my beekeeping. In 10 years periods I can say that bee stocks have become better and better. 30 years ago it was impossible to imagine how good and pleasant are bees nowadays.

Irish Black Bee Society wastes lots of space to bark Italian bees on its page. Over half of the claims are not true. But of course if Italians have been imported from Hawai or from New Zealand, they propably vanish from map.

But if you like that 6500 years old bee stock is good, it is then. But it is not so good as Cornish 100 000 y old stock. The whole Western Europe was then tundra, and bees cannot live on tundra. But never mind.

Stiffy · May 9, 2018

Having just read the paper it does seem very 'loaded' and I am not surprised it was not accepted for publication by a scientific journal. There is an awful lot of supposition, 'may', 'possible' etc. which leads me to think that they have concluded an awful lot from a limited assessment.

The use of DNA could have provided some useful info and if you take the blatant bias out, I guess there is some interesting facts to be gathered. From what I have read Ireland has areas were there are bees with a high percentage of the sub species AMM but this is interspersed with a significant proportion of other sub species.

In association with Bristol University, I have in the past been involved with DNA analysis of a rare UK mammal, which is also found in eastern Europe. They have both adapted to take advantage of there surroundings but there is clear evidence that the UK and European populations are very closely related, even though the populations are isolated from each other.

The latter is always given as fact and it would probably be impossible to conclude but did the populations that apparently originally arrived in Ireland arrive with the DNA from other sub species or was this (factually) from the introduction of bees by bee keepers, as is often cited?

I also have doubts about a paper when the final paragraph says:

"Given the devastating impacts of varroa from introduced bees on this population, particularly on wild bees, efforts should be increased to prevent any impact on this subspecies from introductions of pests and diseases due to the continued imports of non Irish bees"

Although a flaming nuisance, I don't believe varroa has been a disaster just a pest we have to control.
The use of imports/diseases affecting 'wild' bees is purely emotive, not what I initially thought the report was intended to portray and frankly just there to gather support from the green lobby.

S

beeno · May 9, 2018

Uncle Betty said:
?

Clearly, I was addressing Finman's dismissal of pockets of pure populations of amm, on the grounds that they are 'the same bug'.

Not whether or not my bees somehow recognise the hedgerow beyond which lies the next parish.

I can see the colouring in my bees, and I know where it is coming from.

Apparently, phenotype is not a good indicator of genotype.

Curley · May 9, 2018

Stiffy said:
Although a flaming nuisance, I don't believe varroa has been a disaster just a pest we have to control.

S

Possibly not a disaster for managed bees but devastating for wild/feral honey bees surely?

Uncle Betty · May 9, 2018

SDM said:
This suggests you are less than happy with them exercising their right to choose. Yes?

No, that's quite incorrect.

I am delighted that he exercises his right to choose.

We are very fortunate to live in a country where we have rights, and can exercise them.

On the other hand, our choices frequently impact on others. I would be (selfishly) happier if he made a different choice, but c'est la vie.

There's an important difference there, which avoids me being portrayed as a zealot, or as an authoritarian, when I certainly am neither.

Meanwhile, in beekeeping as in life, I will do anything I can to help him, or any other of my neighbours.

------------------------------------------------------------

But then, I wonder what difference it makes to you whether I am unhappy with his choice or not ?

TooBee... · May 9, 2018

Finman said:
.The whole Western Europe was then tundra, and bees cannot live on tundra.

Not wanting to sound more stupid than normal :redface:

why can bees not survive on tundra? Assuming there where places for them to properly hive in, there are flowers during the short and cold summer, or would it be too short and too cold?

This is a serious question, as I think I have just stumbled on some research published in Belfast which may have a important bearing on this article.

B+. · May 9, 2018

TooBee... said:
Not wanting to sound more stupid than normal

why can bees not survive on tundra? Assuming there where places for them to properly hive in, there are flowers during the short and cold summer, or would it be too short and too cold?

This is a serious question, as I think I have just stumbled on some research published in Belfast which may have a important bearing on this article.

Honeybees depend on trees and flowering plants for sugars(carbohydrates) and pollen (protein). Take a look at the definition of Tundra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tundra) and think what sort of plants there were

SDM · May 9, 2018

Uncle Betty said:
No, that's quite incorrect.

I am delighted that he exercises his right to choose.

We are very fortunate to live in a country where we have rights, and can exercise them.

On the other hand, our choices frequently impact on others. I would be (selfishly) happier if he made a different choice, but c'est la vie.

There's an important difference there, which avoids me being portrayed as a zealot, or as an authoritarian, when I certainly am neither.

Meanwhile, in beekeeping as in life, I will do anything I can to help him, or any other of my neighbours.

------------------------------------------------------------

But then, I wonder what difference it makes to you whether I am unhappy with his choice or not ?

Just helps me know where you are coming from and as you succinctly put it clarifies your status as zealot( or not).
For what it's worth I find your approach refreshingly reasonably.

fatshark · May 9, 2018

Beefriendly said:
Whilst Eire remains in the EU that will likely prove difficult as will likely be seen as barrier to free trade. I'm not 100% on this but I think you can only ban animal imports from areas within the EU that are currently suffering from disease, i.e for Bees an AFB affected area or avian flu areas for chickens etc.
Bans don't seem to do much good as bees can be sent in the post quite innocuously.

Colonsay has an import ban on bees ... it is possible to designate areas for conservation reasons, rather than disease.

Not saying this would be possible here, but it is possible.

Don't they also restrict certain regions in Germany to carnis?

foghornleghorn · May 9, 2018

fatshark said:
Colonsay has an import ban on bees ... it is possible to designate areas for conservation reasons, rather than disease.

Not saying this would be possible here, but it is possible.

Don't they also restrict certain regions in Germany to carnis?

The devil would be in the detail of how a protected area is set up, gerrymandering wouldn't be beyond them...
Much better set up mating stations on some of our many islands and use ii so that the amm population is properly secured and the rate of genetic improvement be increased.

Finman · May 9, 2018

B+. said:
Honeybees depend on trees and flowering plants for sugars(carbohydrates) and pollen (protein). Take a look at the definition of Tundra (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tundra) and think what sort of plants there were

Then, from nordic tundra you must go over 1000-1500 km to south, over the coniferous tree belt, that you meet native honeybees.

B+. · May 9, 2018

fatshark said:
Don't they also restrict certain regions in Germany to carnis?

Germany has found a way to satisfy everyone.

A.m. carnica

code* Name
DE-1 State Association of Baden Beekeepers / Landesverband Badischer Imker e.V.
DE-2 State Association of Bavarian Beekeepers / Landesverband Bayerischer Imker e.V.
DE-3 Beekeeping Association Berlin / Imkerverband Berlin e.V.
DE-4 State Association of Bradenburg Beekeepers / Landesverband Brandenburgischer Imker e.V.
DE-5 Beekeeping Association of Hamburg / Imkerverband Hamburg e.V.
DE-6 State Association of Hanoverian Beekeepers / Landesverband Hannoverscher Imker e.V.
DE-7 State Association of Hessian Beekeepers / Landesverband Hessischer Imker e.V.
DE-8 State Association of Beekeepers in Mecklenburg Vorpommern / Landesverband der Imker Mecklenburg Vorpommern e.V.
DE-9 Beekeeping Association Nassau / Imkerverband Nassau e.V.
DE-10 Beekeeping Assocation Rheinland-Pfalz / Imkerverband Rheinland-Pfalz e.V.
DE-11 Beekeeping Association Rheinland / Imkerverband Rheinland e.V.
DE-12 State Association of Beekeepers of the Saarland / Landesverband Saarländischer Imker e.V.
DE-13 State Association of Saxon Beekeepers / Landesverband Sächsischer Imker e.V.
DE-14 Beekeeping Association Sachsen-Anhalt / Imkerverband Sachsen-Anhalt e.V.
DE-15 State Association of Schleswig-Holstein and Hamburg Beekeepers / Landesverband Schleswig-Holsteinischer und Hamburger Imker e.V.
DE-16 State Association of Thuringian Beekeepers / Landesverband Thüringer Imker e.V.
DE-17 State Association of Weser-Ems Beekeepers / Landesverband der Imker Weser-Ems e.V.
DE-18 State Association of Westphalia and Lippisch Beekeepers / Landesverband Westfälischer und Lippischer Imker e.V.
DE-19 State Association of Wuertemburg Beekeepers / Landesverband Würtembergischer Imker e.V.

A.m. mellifera

Code Name
DE-24 Landesverband Brandenburgischer Imker e.V./Mellifera
DE-28 Landesverband der Imker Mecklenburg Vorpommern e.V./Mellifera
DE-34 Imkerverband Sachsen-Anhalt e.V./Mellifera
DE-35 Landesverband Schleswig-Holsteinischer und Hamburger Imker e.V./Mellifera

But, there are also areas that are dedicated to Buckfast too (e.g. Freidrichskoog)

B+. · May 9, 2018

SDM said:
Just helps me know where you are coming from and as you succinctly put it clarifies your status as zealot( or not).
For what it's worth I find your approach refreshingly reasonably.

Me too. If more shared the reasonable attitude you described, I believe this forum would be more harmonious

birdsandbees · May 9, 2018

blimey you lot don't half butt heads a lot! :beatdeadhorse5:

I for one was pleased to read the report, after all Ireland is where my first AMM queens are coming from this year.

As I have said before to others that have pulled faces when I told them I was changing to AMM's, they are just bees, as such can be selected like any others, keep the best and bin the rest.
pretty much what has been said already, its fine to have AMM for the sake of having them which is my main drive but Ideally I'd like to improve them, demonstrate that they could be a viable option for those interested in pet bees or for those interested in Honey as their main goal.
my initial concern was keeping them pure, I have now overcome this issue by investing in II equipment, my next hurdle is sourcing further "pure stock" further down the line to keep a degree of genetic diversity and avoid inbreeding depression, with limited sources of pure or near pure stock this is likely to be the sticking point further down the line.

I am a BIBBA member but since joining its all gone very quiet and queens are like rocking horse poop!

I'm beginning to think that BIBBA is an acronym for Bee Invisibility, Better Buy Abroad

maybe I'll get in touch once up and running in a year or two and see if they want to trade?

fatshark · May 9, 2018

B+. said:
Germany has found a way to satisfy everyone.

A.m. carnica

code* Name
DE-1 State Association of Baden Beekeepers / Landesverband Badischer Imker e.V.
[snip]
DE-19 State Association of Wuertemburg Beekeepers / Landesverband Würtembergischer Imker e.V.

A.m. mellifera

Code Name
DE-24 Landesverband Brandenburgischer Imker e.V./Mellifera
[snip]
DE-35 Landesverband Schleswig-Holsteinischer und Hamburger Imker e.V./Mellifera

But, there are also areas that are dedicated to Buckfast too (e.g. Freidrichskoog)

Thanks B+ ... though I guess German beekeepers are only satisfied if they live in the area which promotes/insists upon their preferred strain.

However, I can't fault the organisation and feel that it must make comparisons of the relative qualities of individual colonies much easier.

We've some long way to go

B+. · May 9, 2018

fatshark said:
Thanks B+ ... though I guess German beekeepers are only satisfied if they live in the area which promotes/insists upon their preferred strain.

However, I can't fault the organisation and feel that it must make comparisons of the relative qualities of individual colonies much easier.

We've some long way to go

I think German beekeepers (imkers) are very happy with the quality of the product they receive. They can buy breeding stock from beekeeping institutes or, for about 6 euros, send daughters to an island mating station. We, truly, have some way to go!

DNA research on Irish AMM.

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