which comes first. feed or treat
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itma
Queen Bee
Depends on the relative urgency.
What is the varroa load? How much stores are in the hive?
You are leaving it a bit late for starting varroa treatment. (Especially in the North of England.)
Which means that you are going to be short of time for feeding.
You can feed and treat at the same time - but Apiguard requires using an eke and feeding encourages comb-drawing in the eke which gives you a mess to sort out and wastes beepower (and feed). Try using an empty super (containing both the Apiguard and a round 'rapid' feeder) in the hope that the big empty space will discourage comb-drawing.
Should you run out of time for feeding the strong (60/40 sugar/water weights) syrup, the bees can take and store commercial 'invert' bee syrups later and quicker. So you have the possibility of changing to that if the weather turns.
What is the varroa load? How much stores are in the hive?
You are leaving it a bit late for starting varroa treatment. (Especially in the North of England.)
Which means that you are going to be short of time for feeding.
You can feed and treat at the same time - but Apiguard requires using an eke and feeding encourages comb-drawing in the eke which gives you a mess to sort out and wastes beepower (and feed). Try using an empty super (containing both the Apiguard and a round 'rapid' feeder) in the hope that the big empty space will discourage comb-drawing.
Should you run out of time for feeding the strong (60/40 sugar/water weights) syrup, the bees can take and store commercial 'invert' bee syrups later and quicker. So you have the possibility of changing to that if the weather turns.
JohnyP
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1. If you have open mesh floors, start by inserting the tray and seeing what the mite drop is like over a 24 or 48 hour period. At this time of year, if you have less that 20 mites over a 24 hour period you could maybe get away without treating (but consider Oxalic acid in January).
2. Gently lift the whole hive about an inch at the back. If it feels really really heavy, you may not need to feed.
2. Gently lift the whole hive about an inch at the back. If it feels really really heavy, you may not need to feed.
itma
Queen Bee
Current DEFRA/NBU advice has that threshold at half that level - about 10/day (at this time of the year).
See "Managing Varroa" - in the latest edition (copyright 2013) the relevant graph is Table 54.
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All depends on the current state of your hives with regard to both feed and varroa. However, if they need feed they will take it incredibly quickly. So if you are unsure I would feed them as much as they will take for 3 or 4 days, then remove feeder and treat for varroa. Don't mess about just treat them, the chances of your bees not needing it are very slim.
After varroa treatment is done then feed them again if they need it. They won't take it as quickly at the back end of October, but they will take it.
After varroa treatment is done then feed them again if they need it. They won't take it as quickly at the back end of October, but they will take it.
masterBK
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If you use MAQS then just one treatment and one week later you can feed. Can all be easily achieved before the end of september. If they are short of stores then give a feed first before treating.
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Your details say you have no hives yet so it's a puzzle as to what you are going to put to bed. Please correct it and then advice can be given more authoritatively on issues you might raise.
As to feeding or treating first - it's bit late for thymol treating (eg Apiguard and I wouldn't advise MAQS either) so I reckon it could be best if you leave any treatment until you have confirmed that there are enough stores to carry them through most of the winter, with maybe a supplement of fondant early in the new year if necessary. As for treatment, that depends largely on the mite drop but if you think the colony can manage for the moment, wait until the queen has stopped laying and that almost all the brood has emerged and then give them a dose of oxalic, even if that is slightly earlier than would normally be recommended. Only you can judge.
masterBK
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Arfermo: on what basis wouldn't you advise MAQS.
On my limited experience of using it for two years on 25 colonies and that of the beekeeper up the road with his 38 colonies I would certainly recommend it rather than waiting a couple of months to put oxalic acid in. Winter bees are being produced now and may will be damaged by Varroa to the point where they may not get all the way through winter. We have had no problems using MAQS of any sort other than the queen stopping laying for 3 or 4 days.
On my limited experience of using it for two years on 25 colonies and that of the beekeeper up the road with his 38 colonies I would certainly recommend it rather than waiting a couple of months to put oxalic acid in. Winter bees are being produced now and may will be damaged by Varroa to the point where they may not get all the way through winter. We have had no problems using MAQS of any sort other than the queen stopping laying for 3 or 4 days.
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BeeJayBee
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It's in OP - "I am in the process of putting my bees to bed".
A lot of forum members don't add either hive type or the number of hives to their profile because they don't want to. Probably the most important thing is roughly whereabouts the bees are, because local conditions can vary a lot. In some areas it might already be too late for a full course of thymol, in others there's probably still plenty of time to use it - that's something that itma picked up on earlier.
An alternative to thymol or MAQS is Apivar (Amitraz), which will work throughout the colder months. http://www.bee-vet.co.uk/shop/view/index.aspx/product/amitraz-strips-20
itma
Queen Bee
However, unlike with Apiguard (thymol) and MAQS (formic acid), repeated use of Apivar (Amitraz) will produce resistant mites - rendering the treatment ineffective.
OK for occasional (some years) use - not for routine (every year) use.
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Hi Joe
We have been going through this process, in the last week. The whole process being done on one site visit, first we have taken the honey off, then the thymol on and finally a feed. Hopefully this will keep them going until they get to their winter site. Any further feeding then will be dictated by their weight, whether they will take it, and the weather.
TOBY-3652
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doing both at the same time
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Yes all three jobs,doing a site all sorted in 1 to 2 hours.
plot72
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I aded Exomite trays into 2 hives last week and added rapid feeders at the top. Unfortunately one hive of bees were really upset by the treatment - refusing to go into the hive whilst the other just accepted it. I have now removed the one tray of treatment and all returned to normal with pollen still being brought in. Which (if any) does anyone think was the right thing to do please? Thought I'd got th teenage bees out my system ;-)
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Put something better like apiguard on - looks all a bit gimicky this exomite mullarkey
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Careful, JBM!
I hear the first sounds of old fogeyism in your post.
You'll be advocating matchsticks soon.
Dusty
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Exomite (or something similar was being promoted quite a few years ago when SWMBO was I/C bees at Welsh Government.I reckon if it's been around since then with no real takeup that it doesn't really do the job. The efficacy of thymol depends a lot on the bees hating the stuff and carrying it through the hive to dump it outside thus spreading thymol throughout the colony. This stuff depends on bees carrying it in on their feet!
Nothing wrong with matchsticks - ideal for setting light to Warre hives.
