Polystyrene v Cedar

[pargyle]

If my newest ones last another 25 years I'm not sure I'll be aware of the fact

James

If my Poly hives last another 25 years I'll DEFINITELY not be aware of the fact ... you youngsters ... I'll bet you are making plans to buy up all our redundant kit when we start pushing up the daisies !

 

[ericbeaumont]

a beekeeper has given up, died, moved interstate (can't move them out of Tasmania for biosecurity reasons), forgotten all about bees and can't be bothered anymore and so on.

Given up: sell to another beekeeper, as with wood.
Died: inheritors sell to another beekeeper, as with wood.
Moved: sell kit & bees before departing, as with wood.
Forgotten about bees, can't be bothered: kit lies empty, is colonised by swarms or nicked by other beekeepers, as with wood.

 

[Wilco]

If my Poly hives last another 25 years I'll DEFINITELY not be aware of the fact ... you youngsters ... I'll bet you are making plans to buy up all our redundant kit when we start pushing up the daisies !

At the prices you all told your other halves you paid for them.

Or perhaps even less factoring in 'depreciation'.

 

[Paulypaul]

If a poly yields 15% more honey than wood, how long would the expensive Abelo tortoise take to catch up with the cheaper hare named Neil?

If a wood colony produced a surplus of 23kg, the poly equivalent would yield 26.45kg. The extra at my price of .0279/g would = £93.15, recoup the greater upfront cost quickly and yield similarly for the rest of its life, which so far is 50+ years and counting. Tortoise wins (again).

We' also need to compare the price of a pre-built cedar super to an Abelo super.

Assembled Cedar super = £45
https://paynesbeefarm.co.uk/products/national-cedar-super-box
Abelo poly super = £30-35
https://www.abelo.co.uk/shop/national-hive/poly-hives-national/national-poly-super-box/
The biggest reason I switched from timber to poly is the very unreliable quality of 2nds timber, which takes time to build and sometimes plane flat. They are a real faff. A significant % of my Thorne 2nds boxes rock back and forth on bowed edges.

With poly, the quality is consistent and very high. I know what I'm getting and I don't have to assemble anything.

 

[Antipodes]

Apart from the fact that Poly hives have an almost indefinite life and disregarding the fact that Tasmania has a load of rich or lazy (possibly both) failing beekeepers that are discarding their redundant poly hives to landfill ....there's a lot of possibles and probables in your premise. I would be more worried about the vast amounts of single use polystyrene and plastic packaging that surround most white goods you buy these days ... that (as your whitegoods probably come from some distance away) are there to protect the product .... in their 10's of thousands. Stop worrrying about a few poly hives that are going to outlast you.

And for what it's worth ... poly can be easily cleaned and sterilised with hypochlorite if needs be ... comes up like new. No biosecurity issues. Red herrings must be popular down there ....

I wouldn't mind a dollar for every time you promote the use of polystyrene hives on here. Every time there is a post from you. Stop worrying about wooden hives. It's a non issue. There is no evidence that there is any less disease in polystyrene plastic hives or that the bees do better in them but you keep on about them. Commercial beekeepers have had hives in wood here long before you were born, and it seems if they know what they are doing they get average of 100kg of honey per colony. It's the same in the UK. Beekeepers have kept bees in wooden hives long before you were thought of and have done very well. And the same in really cold places. Henry Schaefer in Wisconsin the US got 194kg (405 pounds) of honey in each of two of his wooden hives in 1927. You should concentrate more on improving your beekeeping rather than just "pop it in a trendy poly hive and everything will be ok".

 

[Wilco]

I wouldn't mind a dollar for every time you promote the use of polystyrene hives on here. Every time there is a post from you. Stop worrying about wooden hives. It's a non issue. There is no evidence that there is any less disease in polystyrene plastic hives or that the bees do better in them but you keep on about them. Commercial beekeepers have had hives in wood here long before you were born, and it seems if they know what they are doing they get average of 100kg of honey per colony. It's the same in the UK. Beekeepers have kept bees in wooden hives long before you were thought of and have done very well. And the same in really cold places. Henry Schaefer in Wisconsin the US got 194kg (405 pounds) of honey in each of two of his wooden hives in 1927. You should concentrate more on improving your beekeeping rather than just "pop it in a trendy poly hive and everything will be ok".

Whilst I tend to agree with your sentiments regarding poly vs. wood, I don't think it's fair to accuse @pargyle of using poly because it's 'trendy'. Likewise, my impression is that he is already a very competent beekeeper and one of very few I trust when they claim to be successfully 'treatment free'.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

We' also need to compare the price of a pre-built cedar super to an Abelo super.

Assembled Cedar super = £45
https://paynesbeefarm.co.uk/products/national-cedar-super-box

but not many are daft enough to pay Waitrose prices for their wooden kit

 

[Antipodes]

Whilst I tend to agree with your sentiments regarding poly vs. wood, I don't think it's fair to accuse @pargyle of using poly because it's 'trendy'. Likewise, my impression is that he is already a very competent beekeeper and one of very few I trust when they claim to be successfully 'treatment free'.

A person that gets a heat treated pallet destined for the tip, hones it into a useable bee box with their own sweat dripping onto it gets my respect.
Don't paint it. Just let it weather into a beautiful silver hue.

The use of plastics in Beekeeping was one of the things what really surprised me when I started out, just as everyone is starting to reduce plastics, people were starting to use these polystyrene hives, when a perfectly good cedar hive can last and be repaired.

Spot on.

Bee boxes are one of the few choices you have NOT to create more plastic in the environment.

Yes. Very good point.

 

[Antipodes]

Given up: sell to another beekeeper, as with wood.
Died: inheritors sell to another beekeeper, as with wood.
Moved: sell kit & bees before departing, as with wood.
Forgotten about bees, can't be bothered: kit lies empty, is colonised by swarms or nicked by other beekeepers, as with wood.

Unfortunately once you die or sell you totally lose control of them. I've met quite a few people who "used to keep bees".
Can you imagine the smell in the poly hive factory?

 

[ericbeaumont]

Commercial beekeepers have had hives in wood here long before you were born, and it seems if they know what they are doing they get average of 100kg of honey per colony

When one material was the only option it made the decision easy.

Average yields cannot be attributed automatically to wood but more than likely to beekeeper skill, mammoth flows way back when land was unspoiled, or a colonies' ability to overcome the thermal deficiencies of wood.

The conclusion of Murray McGregor beats all else, because running 5000+ in a mixture of wood and poly gives real-world numbers. In this case, yields 15% higher in poly is the take-home figure. All the rest is emotive semantics - who loves wood more, which dimension outranks that, mere pub talk variables.

Use whichever material fulfils the criteria of material, production and thermal efficiency, put it to work and above all, make it last.

 

[Antipodes]

When one material was the only option it made the decision easy.

Average yields cannot be attributed automatically to wood but more than likely to beekeeper skill, mammoth flows way back when land was unspoiled, or a colonies' ability to overcome the thermal deficiencies of wood.

The conclusion of Murray McGregor beats all else, because running 5000+ in a mixture of wood and poly gives real-world numbers. In this case, yields 15% higher in poly is the take-home figure. All the rest is emotive semantics - who loves wood more, which dimension outranks that, mere pub talk variables.

Use whichever material fulfils the criteria of material, production and thermal efficiency, put it to work and above all, make it last.

You need a proper scientific study comparing them. Peer reviewed too. There just aren't any that I'm aware of. If there are, please tell me about them. They've been around long enough now.

 

[Antipodes]

but more than likely to beekeeper skill

Much more important.

 

[pargyle]

I wouldn't mind a dollar for every time you promote the use of polystyrene hives on here. Every time there is a post from you. Stop worrying about wooden hives. It's a non issue. There is no evidence that there is any less disease in polystyrene plastic hives or that the bees do better in them but you keep on about them. Commercial beekeepers have had hives in wood here long before you were born, and it seems if they know what they are doing they get average of 100kg of honey per colony. It's the same in the UK. Beekeepers have kept bees in wooden hives long before you were thought of and have done very well. And the same in really cold places. Henry Schaefer in Wisconsin the US got 194kg (405 pounds) of honey in each of two of his wooden hives in 1927. You should concentrate more on improving your beekeeping rather than just "pop it in a trendy poly hive and everything will be ok".

You are sailing close to the wind ....have a care what you are saying and more importantly how you say it... there is only one rule on here... kick the ball not the man

 

[Wilco]

You are sailing close to the wind ....have a care what you are saying and more importantly how you say it... there is only one rule on here... kick the ball not the man

as opposed to 'kick the balls'?

 

[Antipodes]

Stop worrrying about a few poly hives that are going to outlast you.

 

[Newbeeneil]

If a poly yields 15% more honey than wood, how long would the expensive Abelo tortoise take to catch up with the cheaper hare named Neil?

If a wood colony produced a surplus of 23kg, the poly equivalent would yield 26.45kg. The extra at my price of .0279/g would = £93.15, recoup the greater upfront cost quickly and yield similarly for the rest of its life, which so far is 50+ years and counting. Tortoise wins (again).

How long are you expecting to live Eric? I think I will be rotting away at the same time as my hives! Yours will be gathering dust when you are mouldering

 

[Newbeeneil]

If a poly yields 15% more honey than wood, how long would the expensive Abelo tortoise take to catch up with the cheaper hare named Neil?

If a wood colony produced a surplus of 23kg, the poly equivalent would yield 26.45kg. The extra at my price of .0279/g would = £93.15, recoup the greater upfront cost quickly and yield similarly for the rest of its life, which so far is 50+ years and counting. Tortoise wins (again).

But as I have said before, my idea is to make hybrid hives which use repurposed PIR so if I can match or exceed the Poly insulation values they will achieve, or hopefully exceed, the 15% premium for the same £40 price tag.

 

[Antipodes]

Whilst I tend to agree with your sentiments regarding poly vs. wood, I don't think it's fair to accuse @pargyle of using poly because it's 'trendy'. Likewise, my impression is that he is already a very competent beekeeper and one of very few I trust when they claim to be successfully 'treatment free'.

I'm definitely not trendy unfortunately. I overheard my daughter recently declaring to my wife that "dad's daggier than you".
I can't keep up.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Average yields cannot be attributed automatically to wood

nor to poly

 

[roche]

We've used both poly and wood for about 15 years...Yes, there is a bit of a difference in behaviour and build up, but we haven't found that the poly lasts particularly well, and is a pain to maintain and repair. Also, the mating surfaces between boxes tend to be much larger, with an associated crushing danger to the Bees. I think Newbeeneils concept of a hybrid is interesting, especially if there is some way to keep those mating surfaces to a minimum.