Polystyrene v Cedar

[roche]

Surely this comes down to the purpose of the question. If wanting to know how thick to make cedar walls for them to become equivalent to poly, I agree measurement would be most appropriate. However, if weighing up poly against wood when considering lots of different factors such as price, longevity, environmental impact and benefits for the bees, a more vague (although still needing to be accurate) concept of 'this is roughly the same as/this is slightly better than/this is significantly better than' might be sufficient rather than needing an exact value.

Yes - it is a multifaceted problem; in this instance I was looking at it purely in terms of R. When the other questions come into play, it becomes much more difficult, and I don't think a purely poly solution is the answer.

 

[Martimart]

"However, expanded polystyrene is 100% recyclable, depending on its previous use and cleanliness it can be either recycled into completely new expanded polystyrene products, or used to make slate alternative roofing tiles, or hardwood substitute products such as garden furniture that will not rot. In fact in the UK 33% of all expanded polystyrene manufactured is recycled, this is a much higher level than both aluminium and glass. Recycling expanded polystyrene is a relatively energy efficient process, using less resources in terms of energy and water than recycling paper."

https://www.beehivesupplies.co.uk/PDF/Recycling and Environmental Considerations.pdf

The use of plastics in Beekeeping was one of the things what really surprised me when I started out, just as everyone is starting to reduce plastics, people were starting to use these polystyrene hives, when a perfectly good cedar hive can last and be repaired. I'm still to be convinced that you won't be getting micro-plastic in your honey either. I personally wouldn't want to eat anything out of a poly hive.

 

[Paulypaul]

I assume those densities are in lb/ft3 where as Abelo density is 160g/l so a bit of calculation needed and from previous calculations it never seems to make sense.

Would an email to Abelo do it? They are usually very responsive.

 

[ericbeaumont]

do you need an exact figure?

Save time and go with the practical experience of Murray McGregor (Denrosa Apiaries, 5,000+ colonies) whose significant experience of both demonstrated that poly can yield about 15% more honey than wood.

One reason for that is that a poly colony will use less fuel than one in wood to maintain optimum nest temps & humidity, summer and winter.

 

[ericbeaumont]

still to be convinced that you won't be getting micro-plastic in your honey

Propolis will take care of that.

 

[roche]

Save time and go with the practical experience of Murray McGregor (Denrosa Apiaries, 5,000+ colonies) whose significant experience of both demonstrated that poly can yield about 15% more honey than wood.

One reason for that is that a poly colony will use less fuel than one in wood to maintain optimum nest temps & humidity, summer and winter.

If you are building a hive from scratch, you need the numbers to know if you are improving the situation or not.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Still uses more energy

For a long time I believed that paper was a more ethical choice than a bag made of plastic, but discovered that the paper bag takes four times as much energy to produce.

Not so clear-cut, of course, because variables occur at every stage of the life of a bag (or hive) to make a straightforward conclusion elusive.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ec...k/amp/are-paper-bags-better-than-plastic-bags

 

[alancooper]

Has anyone tried to make a poly hive with recycled materials? Or quesstimated how long a poly hive lasts? Both issues can contribute to the wood/poly debate.

 

[JamezF]

If you really want to know the numbers, and I can see why you'd want some kind of comparable data if you're trying to modify a design to improve it (and to see which modifications are most effective), I think building a rig to do your own tests is probably the only way forward. Variations in wall thickness for handholds, other unnecessary "features", entrance sizes and so on will make other methods too awkward I think.

James

 

[JamezF]

Has anyone tried to make a poly hive with recycled materials? Or quesstimated how long a poly hive lasts? Both issues can contribute to the wood/poly debate.

Poly hives have been in common use for decades on the continent. There must be some useful data on expected lifetime from that.

James

 

[JamezF]

For a long time I believed that paper was a more ethical choice than a bag made of plastic, but discovered that the paper bag takes four times as much energy to produce.

Not so clear-cut, of course, because variables occur at every stage of the life of a bag (or hive) to make a straightforward conclusion elusive.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ec...k/amp/are-paper-bags-better-than-plastic-bags

That's an interesting piece. Thank you for pointing it out.

One of my reasons for preferring paper bags is that once we're done with them they don't actually need to be taken away at all. We have an extra "recycling" box that our compostable waste paper and cardboard goes into and whenever I'm a bit short of "browns" to go into the compost bin (almost always) that's what gets used.

We do sometimes have compostable plastic bags (Lidl use them, I believe), but they're far less common and I believe some are only really compostable if the heap gets sufficiently hot which is not always the case for home compost heaps.

James

 

[ericbeaumont]

just as everyone is starting to reduce plastics, people were starting to use these polystyrene hives, when a perfectly good cedar hive

Reduction of one-use, or unnecessary or harmful plastic, yes: in a city in India you may be sent to prison if seen in the street with a plastic bag. Reason is that dumped bags block drains, which during the monsoon season causes flooding which leads to cholera.

Plastic is not an evil and won't go away, so what must change is the way it is used and recycled. A while ago at a Waitrose checkout I was told that the 10p levy on plastic bags produced no reduction in use; well, to Surrey shoppers 10p was immaterial! I guess that the bag would have to cost a fiver to make them change their behaviour.

Polystyrene hives first appeared in Europe more than 40 years ago and the same hives are still in use, so it's the UK (as usual) which arrived late to the party.

A perfectly good cedar hive is as good (or bad) as a perfectly good poly hive, but before you believe wood is innocent, investigate the energy consumption used to process a North American cedar tree (oops, one less to absorb CO2) into a hive for bees in Northern Europe; even knotty English or Welsh cedar will consume considerable production energy.

 

[hemo]

Finny has said before I believe at least 30/40 years old some of his poly's.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

For a long time I believed that paper was a more ethical choice than a bag made of plastic, but discovered that the paper bag takes four times as much energy to produce.

the difference being that hydrocarbons are a finite element, wood can be sustainably produced - you can't just plant and grow some more oil when it runs out. Let's not mention the pollution created in extraction/refining as well

 

[JamezF]

you can't just plant and grow some more oil when it runs out.

Perhaps you can. But you'll need to wait a very long time

James

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm still to be convinced that you won't be getting micro-plastic in your honey either. I personally wouldn't want to eat anything out of a poly hive.

The biggest source of human contamination by MP is the air we breathe. Likely the same air bees “breathe” and which bathes the flowers they visit

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I personally wouldn't want to eat anything out of a poly hive.

I prefer to use a plate or a bowl, far less messy

 

[Newbeeneil]

Save time and go with the practical experience of Murray McGregor (Denrosa Apiaries, 5,000+ colonies) whose significant experience of both demonstrated that poly can yield about 15% more honey than wood.

One reason for that is that a poly colony will use less fuel than one in wood to maintain optimum nest temps & humidity, summer and winter.

I agree but I would like to test a hive with greater insulation than a normal Poly hive, Hence needing a figure to match/exceed.

 

[pargyle]

The use of plastics in Beekeeping was one of the things what really surprised me when I started out, just as everyone is starting to reduce plastics, people were starting to use these polystyrene hives, when a perfectly good cedar hive can last and be repaired. I'm still to be convinced that you won't be getting micro-plastic in your honey either. I personally wouldn't want to eat anything out of a poly hive.

Utter rubbish ... Poly hives have been around since the 1960's ..and looked after they will last indefinitely - some of mine are over 10 years old and are still in perfect condition - there must be poly hives nudging 50 years old that are still in use. They can be repaired if necessary and the bees love them. As for micro plastics getting into honey ... there's more chance of that happening from the food grade plastic tubs you store your honey in or do you keep yours in wooden barrels ? .... just nonsense.

 

[Antipodes]

Poly hives have been in common use for decades on the continent. There must be some useful data on expected lifetime from that.

James

I find things made out of plastic go brittle after a while and break. Anyhow, I tried to do some research into it a while ago and found something about things called plastomers in the plastic which keep the plastic pliable. These apparently leave the plastic at the rate of about 1.5 per cent a year. Do any chemists out there know about this or can correct me please?
I know lead can be used as one of the ingredients in plastic for a variety of reasons (see below) including pliability.
https://leadsmart.nsw.gov.au/wp-con...astics_consumer-products-and-toys-draft-2.pdf