Drawing a super for winter stores

[MrMouse]

Hi everyone,
I’ve got a nice colony in a national BB which I’ve build up from a nucleus. They’ve well and truly filled the BB now.

I’ve been feeding them 1:1 syrup continually for the last few weeks to build them up which has worked well.

I’m toying with the idea of giving them a super to draw out whilst I’m feeding them which they can therefore store sugar syrup in for winter.

I’m also going to treat them with Apivar and would ideally not contaminate the super with this.

Is it worth seeing if they’ll draw a super pit over the next couple of weeks and then temporarily removing it to treat before returning it for heavy autumn feeding?

Or, should I forget all of the above, crack on and treat and just over winter them on single brood?

Sorry, you can tell I’m just starting out. Thanks.

 

[Swarm]

Second option

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Is it worth seeing if they’ll draw a super pit over the next couple of weeks and then temporarily removing it to treat before returning it for heavy autumn feeding?

definitely not and when it comes to winter feeding I wouldn't put a super on anyway. overwinter them on a single brood.
As you have been feeding them continuously, I'd stop, it's a bit early for building up winter stores and if you're not careful valuable brooding space will get filled up with stores

 

[ericbeaumont]

crack on and treat and just over winter them on single brood

Agree with others: single BB, forget all else.
Check this out: Fife's fondant mountain - The Apiarist

 

[enrico]

This,' I must add a super for winter thing,' is a modern fad. NEVER used a super in the olden days, or fondant for that matter. Just made sure the bb was full

 

[Matthew Roberts]

This,' I must add a super for winter thing,' is a modern fad. NEVER used a super in the olden days, or fondant for that matter. Just made sure the bb was full

I'm a newbie this year too. I have been told by our local association that we need to make sure the colony has at least 20kg stores for the winter, which means a full BB and a full super. This will involve feeding this year as my bees have already eaten half of what they made earlier in the year.
Is this not what other people would recommend?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I'm a newbie this year too. I have been told by our local association that we need to make sure the colony has at least 20kg stores for the winter, which means a full BB and a full super.

poor advice in my view, another case of beekeeping by numbers (and they've got the numbers wrong), I've overwintered strong colonies for years on just a single national deep brood box. The problem is, most of these 'experts' start feeding way too early, when the colonies are still strong and packed with both bees and brood. later on, towards the end of September the colonies are preparing for winter, the queen slowing down considerably and emerging bees making room for winter stores.
There seems to be an urgency nowadays to get winter feeding over and done with before it's even autumn, all that happens then is that there is little room to take advantage of later forage such as ivy, bees start tucking in to the stores much earlier and by Christmas the next big panic happens and as if by rote, everyone believes they must put fondant on, thus they get into this endless circle of stores panic and thus was born the mantra of bees need a super full of stores by September

 

[pargyle]

poor advice in my view, another case of beekeeping by numbers (and they've got the numbers wrong), I've overwintered strong colonies for years on just a single national deep brood box. The problem is, most of these 'experts' start feeding way too early, when the colonies are still strong and packed with both bees and brood. later on, towards the end of September the colonies are preparing for winter, the queen slowing down considerably and emerging bees making room for winter stores.
There seems to be an urgency nowadays to get winter feeding over and done with before it's even autumn, all that happens then is that there is little room to take advantage of later forage such as ivy, bees start tucking in to the stores much earlier and by Christmas the next big panic happens and as if by rote, everyone believes they must put fondant on, thus they get into this endless circle of stores panic and thus was born the mantra of bees need a super full of stores by September

Beat me to it JBM.... There are beekeepers around me that have been 'getting ready for winter' since the middle of last month and already have all their supers off and feeding like it's going out of fashion. Madness ... Of course, a lot depends on location and forage available but, as far as I'm concerned, September is the time to START feeding up for winter and even then I'm cautious as I get a good flow from the Ivy in October and we often get some very good weather in September these days.

Beekeeping by numbers without considering what's going on with the bees and the environment seems to be the way many new beekeepers are being taught and unfortunately it stops people thinking. I'm convinced that some colony losses over winter - when there are still stores left in the hive - are down to people feeding too early, clogging the brood area with stores, thus reducing the space the queen has to lay and the lack of good winter bees leads to colonies dwindling.

Bees will store gallons of invert in next to no time in September - a bit of insulation above the feeder keeps it warm and they will guzzle it down and backfill the space left when the winter bees are emerging.

Clearly, nobody wants their bees to starve but a quick look will tell you whether they have enough stores to get them through the next couple of weeks and that's all they need whilst they are still flying. There are still frames full of brood in my colonies - when the brood area starts to reduce and there are signs of backfilling - then it's time to think about feeding.

 

[ericbeaumont]

20kg stores for the winter, which means a full BB and a full super

An 11-frame BB with 8 or 9 of stores will be enough for winter, but as JBM & Philip explained, not yet.

The job in hand is to maximise brood production during the next 6-8 weeks to get the BB rammed with winter bees, and for that the BB must have laying space, not brood cells filled with syrup.

At this time of the season judge feed according to need, so to ensure the queen lays this and next month, check that the colony has income trickling in. Bear in mind that bees will not uncap sealed stores now to feed a queen (without which she will not lay) so it must be liquid. If no nectar at all is coming in, then by all means feed, but slowly and minimally to keep the engine turning.

Where are you in the UK, Matt? Add a location to your ID and advice can be tailored.

Back to those 8 or 9 frames of stores: a full DN will hold 2.7kg and 8 = 21.6kg, so you'll have reached the target. Bear in mind that invert syrup is far easier for bees to process (about 22% water) than home made with a much higher water content. If you don't want to slop about with syrup, use the fondant method at post 4.

 

[lindsay s]

All the beekeepers up here overwinter on single broods and our bees manage fine despite our long cool winters. Beginners also need to mind on that leaving a super above the brood box overwinter leads to a brood and a half next spring!
I will leave my rant about leaving extra honey on the hives overwinter when a lb of sugar costs a 10th of a lb of honey for another post!

 

[enrico]

I was always told that winter feeding should be finished by the second week of October in the south. I still stick to that. August and September was a time when you left the bees alone except for extraction.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I was always told that winter feeding should be finished by the second week of October

and yet, further North we can happily do it up until November!
More beekeeping by numbers

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Thank you all so much for the replies - very helpful.
I am near York and have only taken 4 x 8oz jars of honey so far. The colony was a nuc in May and has done okay but hasn't brought in much honey. There was just over a full super at the beginning of July but the bees have eaten probably half of this since. The advice I have been given was that I shouldn't be taking any honey as there wasn't enough for the bees for winter. I understood this but wanted at least a bit to try.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

So do you think there's any chance of more honey this year?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So do you think there's any chance of more honey this year?

even if there was (which, unless you're in heather country, I doubt it) since you've been feeding them sugar syrup the last few weeks it won't really be honey will it?

 

[Gilberdyke John]

So do you think there's any chance of more honey this year?

I bloody hope so (and I'm about 25 miles SE of York)
My winter preparation so far is gathering information about where's best prices for sugar plus I've had to buy another pocket size digital scales to make up some Hivemakers Recipe. To put into my sugar syrup to prevent fermentation. I looked high and low but the old scales have gone AWOL.

 

[Erichalfbee]

So do you think there's any chance of more honey this year?

What is growing near you?

 

[Do224]

Bear in mind that bees will not uncap sealed stores now to feed a queen (without which she will not lay) so it must be liquid.

I didn’t realise this. I’ve got a couple of colonies still with supers on…the supers have plenty capped honey in them so I assumed all would be well. Should I be considering feeding these colonies given the bad weather?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I didn’t realise this. I’ve got a couple of colonies still with supers on…the supers have plenty capped honey in them so I assumed all would be well. Should I be considering feeding these colonies given the bad weather?

My bees are going through capped supers no bother.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

What is growing near you?

Balsam I think. Plus a few garden flowers