Wasp Bane traps

[Karol]

I am confused by one thing - when I am standing next to my hives virtually all the wasps are circling/scavenging all around both hives - they will check in front, underneath, around the sides of one then scoot across to the other and so on.

Are we saying that a wasp trap put in the vicinity of the hive will not attract these wasps, only new scouts?

I can understand how this theory works if wasps are (already) robbing a hive, but when they all seem to be scavenging around and entry attempts get rebuffed, I would have thought the traps are ideal?

Hi,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.

What you are describing is typical wasp scouting behaviour, i.e. solitary scouts looking to find a food source. Most of these scouts will be from different colonies and are therefore not working in unison. For as long as your hives are strong enough to rebuff them then they will remain scouting wasps because they won't have found a food source to communicate back to their nests. It is these wasps that you have to deal with (urgently if your hives are in any way compromised or weak) to keep your hives 'safe' before they gain access and before they start swarm feeding.

The best way is to use a high efficiency trap, i.e. one that kills 100% of the scouting wasps it catches. Low efficiency traps will only serve to make the problem worse. I use the word efficiency with great care. Efficiency must not be confused with effectiveness. They are not the same thing. A low efficiency trap can be sited anywhere and it will kill 100s if not 1000s of wasps. It will still however, attract more wasps than it kills and therefore becomes part of the problem. High efficiency traps have to be used intelligently to intercept wasps and this requires knowledge to make them effective. High efficiency traps have to be used in different ways to deal with different situations.

So, in answer to your question, yes, the use of a high efficiency wasp trap will deal with these wasps for you if used properly. However, the use of a high efficiency wasp trap will also deal with wasps that are already robbing out a hive (i.e. swarm feeding). The trick is knowing how. The trick is understanding that wasps programme feed and therefore that programme feeding must be interrupted (by removing or moving the food source), and by understanding that wasps navigate to a point source, so once the food source (hive) is moved, it is imperative then to place a high efficiency trap in the exact same location that the wasps were programme feeding to allow the trap to mop up the wasps.

Anyway, I hope this helps.

Best wishes,

Karol

 

[Karol]

Karol,

very good point ,but I'm hoping the guard bees have a better chance of controlling the situation.
it still seems to be working !!!

Anything which tips the balance in favour of your bees is good, not that I need to tell you that :0) .

One thing that I forgot to mention is that wasps like any other biologically efficient organism, will choose the path of least resistence to food, which essentially means that they don't really want to attack hives because it's dangerous and hard work for them to do so. The benefit you gain from using the gimp pins, isn't just about making it easier for your guard bees to defend the nest. It's also about shutting down 'access' to prevent the wasps from 'tasting' the food. This is the critical bit. Once a wasp enters and feeds, if it gets back to its nest then that's when swarm feeding kicks off and that's when it becomes very difficult. So I'd say your gimp pins are bang on the money in that respect (when wasps are sweet feeding).

The complicating factor in all of this is understanding what wasps are feeding on at any particular time. If they are still protein feeding, they will take bees just as readily as grubs. In this situation your gimp pins may expose your bees to predation because they may prevent guard bees from massing a defense immediately outside of the hive because they will themselves only be able to act in 'single file'. Again, this may need monitoring.

As wasp colonies approach maturity, predatory behaviour by wasps becomes frantic in response to the creation of sexual progeny which requires a massive burst of protein to bring on the queen and drone grubs. This is when hives are at most risk (usually around the last week of July upto the second week of August), particularly when wasp populations are high or there is low availability of other insects (for example hot summers when dry and wilted vegetation can't support as many insects).

I recall once when I visited a bee keeper in Lubeck in Germany when wasps were predating on a hive and the carnage was horrific. Wasps were landing on bees and just amputating their abdomens to fly back with them to feed their own grubs. There were literally 10,000s of crippled bees in a roiling mass and it was heart wrenching. This was before we learned many of the techniques that form the basis of integrated wasp management.

Faced with such a situation again, I'd definitely move the hive and then buy a couple of pints of maggots and place the maggots in the exact location of the hive entrance to keep the wasps 'pre-occupied'. The important thing being to make sure there is as little time delay between moving the hive and substituting in the maggots. And just another little tip, it would probably be worth placing a 10mm mesh over the maggots to stop birds getting at them. Sometimes it just calls for desperate measures.

Best wishes,

Karol

 

[Karol]

Karol, Thanks very much for posting the information. A fellow beekeeper told me over the 'phone (Thanks, Tony) to look at the foum and read - well worth it, thank you for your time and effort in posting.

If I had two wasps nests in a dark roof space (which I haven't) , would they attack each other if I either switched a light on or gave them some natural light?

This is quite an interesting question and the answer is potentially but it depends on a number of things. It certainly wouldn't happen instantly. The first factor is how long is the light switched on for? It will take time for the nests to re-deploy their sentries. Normally sentry wasps are posted at the entry point to the attic and not the entry to the nest. It will take time for the colonies to re-adjust. It also depends on whether the wasps continue to navigate to their nests by following their cuticular peptide trail once they enter the attic space. The cuticular peptide trail will keep the wasps segregated. This may change however when the sentries do eventually re-deploy. Finally, if the light is kept on through the night, the wasps will remain active but won't leave the attic. Eventually this may cause pressure on finding food (assuming the nests haven't yet matured) at which point the colonies may then very well attack each other.

Best wishes,

Karol

 

[Karol]

We have of of these and I am not in the slightest bit convinced. No better than a beer trap.

I am placed in a bit of an awkward position. I don't want to break the rules of the forum which limits what I can say. There have been a few postings now on different traps. The question I have is what measure is being used to gauge the 'effectiveness' of the traps?

In my experience, most people count the numbers of wasps killed by traps. The evidence is overwhelming that this is the wrong measure to use. Just to explain. Lets say that a low efficiency trap kills about 10% of the wasps it catches. (That's about standard for a simple dome trap, jam jar trap and pop bottle trap). Lets say the first wasp that enters is one of the unlucky 10%. It dies (1 dead). Statistically, the next scouting wasp that enters will feed and escape and will return to the nest to bring back say 10 more wasps. The trap is 10% efficient and so another wasp dies leaving 9 wasps alive (2 dead). The 9 wasps then each bring back 10 more wasps making 90 wasps in the trap. Again, 10% will die leaving 81 alive (11 dead). The 81 wasps then bring back 10 each making a total of 810 of which 10% will die giving a total of 92 dead wasps. Great! But there are 729 wasps in the vicinity of the trap that wouldn't have been there in the first place if the trap had never been placed. With a high efficiency trap, the count would only be 1 dead but importantly, that 1 dead scout has been denied the opportunity to find a hive. The purpose of a trap must be to reduce the numbers of wasps in the vicinity of the hives. The correct way (IMHO) to gauge how effective a wasp trap is, is to take a digital photo of the area being protected and count the background number of wasps at any given time.

Here's another interesting fact. If you place a high efficiency trap next to a low efficiency trap in a head to head 'challenge', I wouldn't expect the high efficiency trap to kill more than one or two wasps if that. I would expect the low efficiency trap to kill 100s if not 1000s. And that's perfectly logical.

Best wishes,

Karol

Anyway, I feel as though I'm hogging things a bit and I don't want to out stay my welcome. I'm happy to answer questions directed to me on the forum but otherwise I think it might be time for me to refain. May your hives over run with honey and may your bees stay healthy and well!

:0)

 

[must_dash]

Hi Karol

Thanks for the excellent info.
You mentioned that the home made traps are generally 'low efficiency', Is there a way to make them more efficient? Does a waspbane count as high efficiency? At the moment I generally have many tens of wasps round the house and have nests in the house roof, summerhouse roof that I can't access and have nocturnally destroyed at least 3 underground wasps. Luckily they haven't got to the hives yet.....

Moderator: Maybe the forum rules could be relaxed on this topic so we can all gain from Karol's knowledge on this subject.

 

[Karol]

Hi Karol

Thanks for the excellent info.
You mentioned that the home made traps are generally 'low efficiency', Is there a way to make them more efficient? Does a waspbane count as high efficiency? At the moment I generally have many tens of wasps round the house and have nests in the house roof, summerhouse roof that I can't access and have nocturnally destroyed at least 3 underground wasps. Luckily they haven't got to the hives yet.....

Moderator: Maybe the forum rules could be relaxed on this topic so we can all gain from Karol's knowledge on this subject.

Unfortunately, home made traps are what they are. Efficiency can be improved but unless you achieve virtually 100%, you will still have the same problem only it will take longer to get to wasp saturation; viz;

Using the same statistical modelling and summarizing the results;

20% efficient = 2 dead @ start - 2 dead 8 alive - 16 dead 64 alive - 128 dead 512 alive giving a total of 148 wasps dead and 512 in the vicinity of the hives.

80% efficient = 8 dead @ start -8 dead 2 alive - 16 dead 4 alive - 32 dead 8 alive giving a total of 64 wasps dead and 8 alive in the vicinity of the hives. However, those 8 won't stop so the numbers continue to build i.e. 128 dead 32 alive - 256 dead 64 alive - 512 dead 128 alive etc etc.

Some people add detergent to improve efficiency in their traps and this improves efficiency for a few minutes. All wasps have empty abdomens which means when they drown they then float. Once there's a raft of dead wasps, the drowning rate drops off to a point where the addition of the detergent makes no difference.

Given my back ground I could ofcourse tell you more but I have a family to feed as well :0). So I'm happy to help in respect of integrated wasp management techniques and strategies but please excuse me if I don't breach my own patent secrets. Suffice it to say that no trap 'on their own' will deliver success. Success comes from applying the right knowledge in the right way at the right time using the right tools and understanding that situations are dynamic and may need a change in strategy or tools as time goes by.

The problem with low efficiency traps comes when access to food is denied to the wasps visiting the traps. This happens in two ways. Firstly, the traps dry out or spoil. Secondly, there are so many wasps swarm feeding at the trap that they prevent each other from getting to the food. This is where low efficiency traps may become hazardous to hives. Why? Well it's all about numbers.

Without the low efficiency traps, scouting wasps will visit hives as individuals and are more likely to get knocked back by the guard bees. When a low efficiency trap eventually denies access for the reasons given above, there will already be a swarm of wasps (from more than one colony) that will then actively search for an alternative food source. The problem is that they will do so in concentrated numbers because the swarm is already there. In this situation, the wasps are far more likely to get a foot hold in a hive :0(

Regards,

Karol

 

[must_dash]

Carrying on from the congestion issue then surface area of the liquid and the volume of the trap are vital factors. Going from a pop bottle to extreme of a 45 gallon drum then your efficiency will improve over the longer run as the raft will take longer to form and there is space inside for many more wasps?

On this note surely a waspbane only has a limited efficiency as it also must clog up denying access or drowning?

you can PM me if you don't want to discuss in public.

Tom

 

[merylvingien]

OK , I'm back again so I'll try to finish off my previous posting.

Treating nests without forethought may actually increase the number or duration of nuisance wasps that may then attack hives for honey. I would like to clarify first what I mean by nuisance wasps. In my book, nuisance wasps are those worker wasps from a colony which has gone into decline after maturation with the release of its sexual progeny. Essentially, nuisance wasps are worker wasps that are scavenging for sweet liquids because there aren't any grubs left in the nest. These workers are technically 'on their way out' i.e. starting to starve from a lack of food.

Back to the explanation. Wasps are able to identify and recognize each other on sight and recognition is confirmed by active communication between wasps. This behaviour is critical to wasp survival, no more so than in the way that they protect their food and their nests. Considerable research work has been done in this field where sentry wasps have been mounted (glued) onto wooden pilums and their levels of aggression measured in response to recognition challenges. The heads of wasps from the sentries own nests' together with the heads of wasps from different colonies were presented to the sentries and the 'fight' response measured. In 100% of cases, the sentry wasps were able to identify foreign wasps.

If you have ever watched wasps returning to a nest, you might perhaps have noticed that they stay outside of the guarded entry point adopting a defensive, dancing flight before finally entering. Actually what is happening is that the returning wasps are waiting to be recognized and are waiting for confirmation from the sentries to be allowed into the nest. Without that grant or permission of entry the returning wasps won't enter the nest. Infact, if they tried to enter without permission the sentries would kill them. This sentry recognition and affirmation behaviour leads to a very interesting phenomenon when it comes to nest treatment. Invariably, when insecticides are used to treat a nest, the first wasps to suffer are the sentries. This results in the loss of the recognition and affirmation process for returning wasps which means that they don't (ever) enter the nest and are therefore not killed by the insecticide.

It also means that if the nest is in its growth phase, i.e. the worker wasps are getting their food from their grubs, that this food source will be denied to them essentially prematurely creating nuisance wasps that then need to find an alternative source of sweet food, e.g. honey from hives. At any one time there may be anywhere between 1,500 to 4,500 worker wasps outside of a nest at any one time with about 200 to 500 wasps in residence. Treating a nest at the wrong time of year may therefore cause rebound problems. After nest maturation, all nest treatment reduces nuisance wasp numbers. Similarily, treating nests first thing in the morning, i.e. just before first light, is more likely to be successful because it will catch all of the worker wasps when they're 'home'. Treating during the day is far less effective.

Anyway, if you decide to treat the nest yourself, this is something that you should consider.

Professionally (as a pharmacist), I have to warn you that wasps are hazardous and they pose a serious health risk (especially with the recent emergence of medical data regarding Kounis syndrome) and it is probably wiser to use the services of an external contractor. Just for the record we are not a pest control company and don't offer or provide pest control services. Our specialization is limited to our product (that I shan't mention), and the integrated management of wasps. Not only am I keen to help bee keepers protect their bees but more importantly as a healthcare professional, my principal concern is trying to prevent the estimated 1,000 to 1,400 people that may be dying from wasp stings each year.

Best wishes,

Karol

Hi Karol, we met at the beginning of the year and a most interesting day it was too.

I do have some points about the killing of wasp nests that I would like to mention though.

As a pest controller, I kill many hundreds of nests each year, this year being particularly busy, over 600 nests already and we are still not into August.
You state that when a nest is treated and the guard wasps are dead, no other foraging wasps returning to the nest will enter. This is not what I have experienced in my day to day wasp bashing exercises. I will explain…

You are probably more than familiar with the powder type treatments I.E. FicamD and such like. I have treated many nests which are located some distance away from the actual entrance to wherever the nest is located, basically none of the powder has touched the nest and I am reliant on the foraging wasps returning to the nest to carry the powder into the nest to kill it. I haven’t failed to kill a nest in these situations yet.

The recommended dose of FicamD per nest is 30 grams. I have weighed 30 grams of FicamD and it is surprising just how much 30 grams is in quantity.
It takes on average about 5 minutes to kill a wasp once it comes into contact with the powder. The guard wasps are not dead instantly, however reluctance to go into the entrance by foraging wasps is instant after treatment.

You could argue that the guards abandon the entrance as soon as treatment is applied, which prevents foragers from entering I suppose, but I will address that in a moment.

After treatment I have watched the activity for a considerable time. What I have witnessed is an instant reaction from treatment, with foragers reluctant to enter, this goes on for about 20 minutes after which they do go back in, but not before looking for any other possible entrance into the nest.
An hour after treatment the nest is dead. No activity.

It could be argued that the foragers have given up after this time and left (guard wasps dead and all) but what about the nests that I have attended where some clients have blocked the entrance with expanding foam, blue tack, mastic or some other wonderful creation and the foragers are still trying to get in a day or two after the entrance was blocked?

If the majority of foraging wasps do not ever enter the nest and die, where do they go? If this were the case, common sense would dictate that immediately after a large nest was treated there would be thousands of homeless wasps causing a nuisance within the immediate vicinity of the nest, but this is never the case.

I am not trying to imply that you are wrong or I am right, all I am saying is what I am witnessing is different.

Regards
Paul (Wasp Control UK)

 

[Skylark]

Ive read planting Wormwood is a natural repelleant to Wasps. Can anyone confirm this (I assume it doesnt put the bees off). Any other plants?

 

[Karol]

Hi Karol, we met at the beginning of the year and a most interesting day it was too.

I do have some points about the killing of wasp nests that I would like to mention though.

As a pest controller, I kill many hundreds of nests each year, this year being particularly busy, over 600 nests already and we are still not into August.
You state that when a nest is treated and the guard wasps are dead, no other foraging wasps returning to the nest will enter. This is not what I have experienced in my day to day wasp bashing exercises. I will explain…

You are probably more than familiar with the powder type treatments I.E. FicamD and such like. I have treated many nests which are located some distance away from the actual entrance to wherever the nest is located, basically none of the powder has touched the nest and I am reliant on the foraging wasps returning to the nest to carry the powder into the nest to kill it. I haven’t failed to kill a nest in these situations yet.

The recommended dose of FicamD per nest is 30 grams. I have weighed 30 grams of FicamD and it is surprising just how much 30 grams is in quantity.
It takes on average about 5 minutes to kill a wasp once it comes into contact with the powder. The guard wasps are not dead instantly, however reluctance to go into the entrance by foraging wasps is instant after treatment.

You could argue that the guards abandon the entrance as soon as treatment is applied, which prevents foragers from entering I suppose, but I will address that in a moment.

After treatment I have watched the activity for a considerable time. What I have witnessed is an instant reaction from treatment, with foragers reluctant to enter, this goes on for about 20 minutes after which they do go back in, but not before looking for any other possible entrance into the nest.
An hour after treatment the nest is dead. No activity.

It could be argued that the foragers have given up after this time and left (guard wasps dead and all) but what about the nests that I have attended where some clients have blocked the entrance with expanding foam, blue tack, mastic or some other wonderful creation and the foragers are still trying to get in a day or two after the entrance was blocked?

If the majority of foraging wasps do not ever enter the nest and die, where do they go? If this were the case, common sense would dictate that immediately after a large nest was treated there would be thousands of homeless wasps causing a nuisance within the immediate vicinity of the nest, but this is never the case.

I am not trying to imply that you are wrong or I am right, all I am saying is what I am witnessing is different.

Regards
Paul (Wasp Control UK)

Hi Paul,

Nice to chat again. Hope you're keeping well.

You are of course absolutely right that it's not a question of who is right or wrong but a question of different circumstances. The sentry post is key and the way in which a nest 'dies' will vary depending on the location of that post. So, if the pesticide is laid on the cuticular peptide trail back to a nest in an attic for example, in such a way that the sentries are not incapacitated and continue to give permission to return, then foraging wasps will carry the pesticide into the nest and the nest will die as will any returning wasps. This is quite a different situation to treating a nest which is in the open.

We know that an average nest will contain between 2,000 to 5,000 wasps. However, in the vast majority of times that nests are treated the numbers of wasps killed average in the low hundreds. The colony may be dead, but that doesn't change the fact that there will be thousands of displaced foraging wasps that don't go back into the nest.

We've done work on this. Try for yourself if you like but please don't take unnecessary risks (I know I'm teaching a pest controller to suck eggs :0) ). When you treat a nest (mid July onwards), remove it and count the dead wasps. I doubt if you do the treatment during the day that you'll find anything like the 2,000 to 5,000 wasps that should be there.

We've sited vacuum hoses at wasp entrance sites to determine wasp populations within a nest. The vacuum hose is set so it doesn't suck up the sentries so traffic is not impeded. After 16 daylight hours of vacuuming we've caught pretty close to the whole population and it's in the 1000s.

Likewise I'm only sharing our observations from the active research that we've done. We know from our work around large theme parks that treating nests before they have matured results in wasps sweet feeding prematurely. This is not an absolute (in terms of being soley due to nest treatment) because wasps are opportunists and will take sweet foods if it's presented 'on route' but during the hunting phase they do not purposefully go looking for sugar or swarm around it.

Best wishes,

Karol

 

[Karol]

It could be argued that the foragers have given up after this time and left (guard wasps dead and all) but what about the nests that I have attended where some clients have blocked the entrance with expanding foam, blue tack, mastic or some other wonderful creation and the foragers are still trying to get in a day or two after the entrance was blocked?


Regards
Paul (Wasp Control UK)

You know, this is something that I have often wondered about but don't have a definite answer for. There are two things though that I am aware of. First of all, we don't fully understand how wasps communicate and grant of access may not just be visual. It may also be audible and pheromonal. It may be that the sentry post is fixed 'pheromonally' as well as visually which would explain why wasps keep returning when an entrance is closed up.

The other thing that I know is that dying wasps emit a warning pheromone. We know this because we have to denature it for our traps to work throughout the season. It may be that the sentries emit this as they die which then warns off returning wasps. This is not a 'clean' explanation because it doesn't fit with every situation as you will be well aware. However, it may be that a combination of a lack of sentries to grant permission to enter coupled to the warning pheromone stops the returning wasps from entering in the treated nest situation but not the blocked hole situation.

Best wishes,

Karol

 

[Karol]

Carrying on from the congestion issue then surface area of the liquid and the volume of the trap are vital factors. Going from a pop bottle to extreme of a 45 gallon drum then your efficiency will improve over the longer run as the raft will take longer to form and there is space inside for many more wasps?

On this note surely a waspbane only has a limited efficiency as it also must clog up denying access or drowning?

you can PM me if you don't want to discuss in public.

Tom

Hi Tom,

If one accepts that a high efficiency trap only kills a small number of wasps to be effective, then the efficiency of the trap is not compromised in the same way as a low efficiency trap simply because the numbers aren't there to cause the problem.

Add to that that if one has a 'composting' system to break down the wasps caught over time, then there is no reason for a high efficiency trap to ever lose efficiency provided it is catching wasps at a steady low daily rate.

The efficiency of the pop bottle vs a 45 gallon drum is dependent on wasp retention technologies, not simply on numbers drowning.

You are quite right though that surface area and volume are important and the dimensions of a trap need to reflect certain wasp traits (like the average drop height of a wasp in free flight :0) - but that's another story).

Best wishes,

Karol

 

[Karol]

Anything which tips the balance in favour of your bees is good, not that I need to tell you that :0) .

One thing that I forgot to mention is that wasps like any other biologically efficient organism, will choose the path of least resistence to food, which essentially means that they don't really want to attack hives because it's dangerous and hard work for them to do so. The benefit you gain from using the gimp pins, isn't just about making it easier for your guard bees to defend the nest. It's also about shutting down 'access' to prevent the wasps from 'tasting' the food. This is the critical bit. Once a wasp enters and feeds, if it gets back to its nest then that's when swarm feeding kicks off and that's when it becomes very difficult. So I'd say your gimp pins are bang on the money in that respect (when wasps are sweet feeding).

The complicating factor in all of this is understanding what wasps are feeding on at any particular time. If they are still protein feeding, they will take bees just as readily as grubs. In this situation your gimp pins may expose your bees to predation because they may prevent guard bees from massing a defense immediately outside of the hive because they will themselves only be able to act in 'single file'. Again, this may need monitoring.

As wasp colonies approach maturity, predatory behaviour by wasps becomes frantic in response to the creation of sexual progeny which requires a massive burst of protein to bring on the queen and drone grubs. This is when hives are at most risk (usually around the last week of July upto the second week of August), particularly when wasp populations are high or there is low availability of other insects (for example hot summers when dry and wilted vegetation can't support as many insects).

I recall once when I visited a bee keeper in Lubeck in Germany when wasps were predating on a hive and the carnage was horrific. Wasps were landing on bees and just amputating their abdomens to fly back with them to feed their own grubs. There were literally 10,000s of crippled bees in a roiling mass and it was heart wrenching. This was before we learned many of the techniques that form the basis of integrated wasp management.

Faced with such a situation again, I'd definitely move the hive and then buy a couple of pints of maggots and place the maggots in the exact location of the hive entrance to keep the wasps 'pre-occupied'. The important thing being to make sure there is as little time delay between moving the hive and substituting in the maggots. And just another little tip, it would probably be worth placing a 10mm mesh over the maggots to stop birds getting at them. Sometimes it just calls for desperate measures.

Best wishes,

Karol

Sorry I haven't figured out how to edit posts retrospectively but having re-read the above post I didn't make clear that the maggots would need to be sited where the entrance to the hive was before the hive was moved. That's a big ooops on my part. Sorry!

Best wishes,

Karol

 

[merylvingien]

You know, this is something that I have often wondered about but don't have a definite answer for. There are two things though that I am aware of. First of all, we don't fully understand how wasps communicate and grant of access may not just be visual. It may also be audible and pheromonal. It may be that the sentry post is fixed 'pheromonally' as well as visually which would explain why wasps keep returning when an entrance is closed up.

The other thing that I know is that dying wasps emit a warning pheromone. We know this because we have to denature it for our traps to work throughout the season. It may be that the sentries emit this as they die which then warns off returning wasps. This is not a 'clean' explanation because it doesn't fit with every situation as you will be well aware. However, it may be that a combination of a lack of sentries to grant permission to enter coupled to the warning pheromone stops the returning wasps from entering in the treated nest situation but not the blocked hole situation.

Best wishes,

Karol

From observations when treating nests, I would conclude that wasps navigate primarily using their sight, as they regularly miss the target. I have even been called to houses where the owners think they have a nest, but the nest is actually next door and the wasps are making a mistake. Normally this occurs on dormer windows and on housing estates where every house looks alike.

I would also conclude that when they get close to the entrance they switch from vision to pheromone as the last guide into the entrance. This would make sense because as soon as a nest/entrance is treated foragers will not enter. This could be that the application of powder stops the pheromone or should I say masks it. Foragers appear confused and bob around the entrance as if they are not quite sure if they have got right front door.
I have also noticed, particularly on larger nests, a minute or so after treatment there appears to be panic! Is this a distress pheromone being emitted? Not sure about that, but it would appear to be so, perhaps an “under attack” signal is released.

I have also noted that fast flying behaviour is a bad sign if you are not wearing a bee suit, again, more so on larger nests.

I find the whole subject fascinating, not just because it is my job, but probably because little is really known about them compared to bees etc.

Regards
Paul
Always learning…

 

[Karol]

From observations when treating nests, I would conclude that wasps navigate primarily using their sight, as they regularly miss the target. I have even been called to houses where the owners think they have a nest, but the nest is actually next door and the wasps are making a mistake. Normally this occurs on dormer windows and on housing estates where every house looks alike.

I would also conclude that when they get close to the entrance they switch from vision to pheromone as the last guide into the entrance. This would make sense because as soon as a nest/entrance is treated foragers will not enter. This could be that the application of powder stops the pheromone or should I say masks it. Foragers appear confused and bob around the entrance as if they are not quite sure if they have got right front door.
I have also noticed, particularly on larger nests, a minute or so after treatment there appears to be panic! Is this a distress pheromone being emitted? Not sure about that, but it would appear to be so, perhaps an “under attack” signal is released.

I have also noted that fast flying behaviour is a bad sign if you are not wearing a bee suit, again, more so on larger nests.

I find the whole subject fascinating, not just because it is my job, but probably because little is really known about them compared to bees etc.

Regards
Paul
Always learning…

I have to concur that we do indeed know very little about wasps.

Ghosting is quite a well known phenomenon and if I recall correctly quite a bit of research has been done into wasp navigation. In one of the studies that I read, different shapes were laid out in a field which wasps then used for navigation. The researchers added further identical shapes and the wasps ended up navigating to the wrong place. Very similar to the effects you describe.

One thing that I forgot to mention earlier about sentries which might also explain some of your observations is that there is almost perpetual communication between sentry posts and the nest and this is done by resident wasps (that are not foragers) going backwards and forwards between the nest and the sentry post. These wasps understandably are difficult to differentiate from returning and exiting foragers. At any one time a nest has wasps in reserve to defend the nest in the event of an attack and these 'reserves' or 'residents' are not sentry wasps but are predominantly those wasps engaged in progeny rearing, climatic control of the nest, communication vectors, builders, etc, etc. We also know that sentries are swapped out a bit like the changing of the guard which makes sense otherwise they wouldn't get fed. It is quite possible for these resident wasps to carry the pesticide back into the nest without any foragers returning.

Still not a complete answer but as you said, we do understand so little about wasps.

Best wishes,

Karol

 

[Karol]

From observations when treating nests, I would conclude that wasps navigate primarily using their sight, as they regularly miss the target. I have even been called to houses where the owners think they have a nest, but the nest is actually next door and the wasps are making a mistake. Normally this occurs on dormer windows and on housing estates where every house looks alike.

I would also conclude that when they get close to the entrance they switch from vision to pheromone as the last guide into the entrance. This would make sense because as soon as a nest/entrance is treated foragers will not enter. This could be that the application of powder stops the pheromone or should I say masks it. Foragers appear confused and bob around the entrance as if they are not quite sure if they have got right front door.
I have also noticed, particularly on larger nests, a minute or so after treatment there appears to be panic! Is this a distress pheromone being emitted? Not sure about that, but it would appear to be so, perhaps an “under attack” signal is released.

I have also noted that fast flying behaviour is a bad sign if you are not wearing a bee suit, again, more so on larger nests.

I find the whole subject fascinating, not just because it is my job, but probably because little is really known about them compared to bees etc.

Regards
Paul
Always learning…

I have to concur that we do indeed know very little about wasps.

Ghosting is quite a well known phenomenon and if I recall correctly quite a bit of research has been done into wasp navigation. In one of the studies that I read, different shapes were laid out in a field which wasps then used for navigation. The researchers added further identical shapes and the wasps ended up navigating to the wrong place. Very similar to the effects you describe.

It is possible that applied pesticide may mask the 'location' pheromone. However, we know that foragers require permission from a sentry to enter their nest. We have recorded wasp recognition behaviour and quite a bit of research has been done into wasp colleague recognition. Wasps absolutely emit ditress pheromones when attacked which sends the colony into an aggressive frenzy. It is advisable not to squash wasps against one's clothing or against one's self in the vicinity of a nest because the squashed wasp will release distress pheromone which will contaminate the clothes or skin and act as a beacon for other wasps to attack. Wasps have been known to chase people contaminated with distress pheromone for many hundreds of yards and in some anecdotal cases for over a mile.

One thing that I forgot to mention earlier about sentries which might also explain some of your observations is that there is almost perpetual communication between sentry posts and the nest and this is done by resident wasps (that are not foragers) going backwards and forwards between the nest and the sentry post. These wasps understandably are difficult to differentiate from returning and exiting foragers. At any one time a nest has wasps in reserve to defend the nest in the event of an attack and these 'reserves' or 'residents' are not sentry wasps but are predominantly those wasps engaged in progeny rearing, climatic control of the nest, communication vectors, builders, etc, etc. We also know that sentries are swapped out a bit like the changing of the guard which makes sense otherwise they wouldn't get fed. It is quite possible for these resident wasps to carry the pesticide back into the nest without any foragers returning.

Still not a complete answer but as you said, we do understand so little about wasps.

Best wishes,

Karol

 

[AdrianSmith]

I have to concur that we do indeed know very little about wasps.


Karol

Here's a question - prompted by the discussion of the wasp nest repellent, and the following bit from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waggle_dance
"When scientists placed a dead Apis mellifera bee on flowers they discovered that bees performed far fewer waggle dances upon returning to their nest."
So, might wasps be put off by dead wasps?

Adrian

 

[Compostcritter]

I tried traps last year. Had Approx six round the hive. It killed all the bees as it attracted thousands! This year I use a trap but keep it twenty metres away. So far so good! I have caught hundreds and it seems to mainly keep the wasps from the hives .

 

[victor meldrew]

Here's a question - prompted by the discussion of the wasp nest repellent, and the following bit from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waggle_dance
"When scientists placed a dead Apis mellifera bee on flowers they discovered that bees performed far fewer waggle dances upon returning to their nest."
So, might wasps be put off by dead wasps?

Adrian

At the end of the season ,wasps turn cannibal and dissect and carry off
dead wasps ,ergo wasps are not put off by dead wasps !

VM

 

[Karol]

Here's a question - prompted by the discussion of the wasp nest repellent, and the following bit from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waggle_dance
"When scientists placed a dead Apis mellifera bee on flowers they discovered that bees performed far fewer waggle dances upon returning to their nest."
So, might wasps be put off by dead wasps?

Adrian

Hi Adrian,

Bees and wasps are related so don't be surprised if they share certain similar traits.

Our research shows that dead wasps in one location do deter other wasps. This is seen in certain wasp traps which need constant emptying and cleaning for them to remain active. We over came this problem in a specific way which clearly I can't elaborate on save to say that it required a little bit of igenuity.

Wasps employ significant 'health protection' strategies of which this is one. Wasps have proven to be remarkably resilient to disease because they employ a range of anti-infection/infestation techniques. Colonies kill and exponge infected or infested individuals so attempts to use biological controls such as pathogens (aspergillus flavius, rickettsia etc) and parasites (mites and parasitoid wasps) have all failed. It's not just that wasps are resistant it's also that they have sophisticated defense strategies including avoiding other dead wasps. If you want to really appreciate how sophisticated wasps are then did you know that certain wasps carry mites in special pouches and release these mites to kill off invading parasitic wasps! You can see this for yourselves on U-tube if you google parasitoid wasp and mites.

All of which doesn't mean that VM is incorrect. Wasps will still attack each other for food if food is scarce and in this respect they can be cannabalistic, it's just that they only take 'fresh' wasps.

Best wishes,

Karol