Varroa...to treat or not to treat

[B+.]

Did the hive swarm last year: age of queen going into winter

Putting all that together and we would be getting somewhere rather than the continual roundabout 'debate'.

Actually, its tough luck if a colony swarms. The colony is only scored on what it produces. We can't guess at what it might have produced if it hadn't swarmed

Absolutely...we need a rational method. That is what I am using

 

[beebot]

Actually, its tough luck if a colony swarms. The colony is only scored on what it produces. We can't guess at what it might have produced if it hadn't swarmed

Absolutely...we need a rational method. That is what I am using

This was not quite what I was getting at. I was thinking that colonies which have swarmed my not have such a high varroa load due to having a broodless period.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I do stand to be corrected on my thoughts.

There are also a lot of fakers around...

charlatan, fake, fraud, humbug, impostor, phony, pretender, quack.

 

[Thymallus]

You need to understand how the breeding value is calculated:

I do. Your breeding values are biased as they reflect the overall aims of the groups project. You could end with varroa tolerant lines that give little honey yield. Great for the ecobeekos who pretend that honey yields are not what they wish (they have to say that though don't they )
but it's not what many beekeepers are after.

 

[Thymallus]

There are also a lot of fakers around...

You mean the midnight thymolers?

 

[Hivemaker.]

You mean the midnight thymolers?

That's the ones, treatment free midnight thymolers

 

[B+.]

I do. Your breeding values are biased as they reflect the overall aims of the groups project. You could end with varroa tolerant lines that give little honey yield. Great for the ecobeekos who pretend that honey yields are not what they wish (they have to say that though don't they )
but it's not what many beekeepers are after.

You're right. The testing is skewed in favour of varroa tolerance (40% weighting) but the other characteristics are important too.
The figures from this years testing will be available early next year (February) and I can specify search criteria to look for even better breeding material than I already have. (e.g. honey yield > 120%)

 

[Finman]

You need to understand how the breeding value is calculated:
15% - Honey yield
15% - Defensive behaviour
15% - Calmness during inspections
15% - Swarm drive
40% - Varroa index

.

My first value is ability to lay in two boxes. One box...no

My 3 values are good queens, big hives, good pastures.

Big hives are important to because our flow happens during short periods. Hives must have capasity to store the huge flow and get it inside. That is shy I join smaller hives in big towers.

Only big hives are able to catch early yield in June. Big hives have 50-100% mofe foraging weeks than small colonies.

What is early build up... Big start/big colony in autumn.... Pollen stores

.that is not possible that small winter cluster and quick build up.

.

 

[Thymallus]

My first value is ability to lay in two boxes. One box...no

Agree, it makes the honey index enormous!

 

[Finman]

.
What that above has to do with varroa.. When I try to keep hives in good shape year around, varroa cuts half of winter cluster's size away.

Varroa is eating in my table.

 

[Thymallus]

varroa tolerance (40% weighting)

Am I right in thinking that the varroa tolerance is calculated from the hygienic behavior on pin prick killing of brood/liquid nitrogen killing of brood and how efficiently a hive removes the dead larvae? Or is it based on levels of varroa present in a hive?

Apologies if you've answered this before.

 

[B+.]

My first value is ability to lay in two boxes. One box...no.

I have posted photos of my colonies. I expect just the same as you 2+ boxes of brood (Langstroth....not National!) and 4+ boxes of honey
Thats pretty good for the UK climate

 

[B+.]

Am I right in thinking that the varroa tolerance is calculated from the hygienic behavior on pin prick killing of brood/liquid nitrogen killing of brood and how efficiently a hive removes the dead larvae? Or is it based on levels of varroa present in a hive?

Apologies if you've answered this before.

Its actually a number of things:
starting position is based on the average natural mite drop over 3 * 7 consecutive day readings (i.e. 21 days = worker brood cycle from egg to emergence) - at willow bloom time (March)
A minimum of 2 pinpick tests (so you can provide an average) but preferably more throughout the season
A sample of >30g adult bees taken from the super in early July (washed and varroa counted after a soapy solution applied to wash mites). My readings are based on >50g samples so I can give a more reliable figure

Most people will wave their hands and give you wishy-washy answers and figures plucked out of the air. I don't do that.]

edit: I did the pinprick test this year using a number 2 entemology pin (since this is the baseline that BeeBreed & Coloss requires) but I will probably include liquid Nitrogen tests in the future when I have the resources to carry out this test safely

 

[Thymallus]

Thanks, the reason I ask is I don't understand how or why the hygienic behavior based on pinprick/brood killing removal is related to varroa tolerance?
I would have thought that varroa numbers were a more reliable guide to a hives ability to deal with them (factoring colony size and everything else being equal into account). It's one of things that has puzzled me about the LASSI research which concentrated on dead brood removal.

 

[B+.]

I don't understand how or why the hygienic behavior based on pinprick/brood killing removal is related to varroa tolerance?

As far as I can see LASI are repeating work that has already been done in the US and elsewhere for climate consistency reasons (but thats my opinion).

 

[pargyle]

The long mild season gave bees ample time to get reinfected despite treatment. Your time will come early days yet. I remember when you used to say you did not have any varroa in your hive. Sweet isn't it with hindsight.

I didn't have any varroa for well beyond the first year in my Long Deep Hive ... it was probably that which finally cemented me on the no-treatment path. As you will also recognise I am not a no-treatment evangelist ... I have always said that the moment when my bees look as though they are unable to cope with Varroa then I will be treating. So far I am either very lucky or the conditions in which my bees live works for them. I spend a lot of time and effort checking properly for varroa and the levels are very low in all my colonies.

I've taken a fair bit of stick (and continue to do so) from Finnie who has continually claimed claimed my bees will wither and die ... All I can do is tell you that they are not failing but thriving ... and as I said previously, I am not alone, there are others out there !

It can't be the weather affecting the varroa as we could not have had two more extremes of weather between this year and last year.

So ... whatever it is works for me ... I recognise that there are a few people who quietly hope that those who don't treat will fail ... but I take the view that it's a journey with hope - there's no arrogance in that. I consider myself a responsible and thinking beekeeper, I'm not seeking followers or suggesting I have any answers but if there are risks then so be it - in my book they are worth taking.

 

[Thymallus]

I humbly suggest you need a control experiment. Treat half and see if they do better then your untreated. Otherwise you may simply be allowing heavily paratisized bees to live a miserable existence and never know what they might be capable of.

 

[pargyle]

What I find quite interesting is that our varroa breeders never boast about their honey yields. I do recall Pargyle saying 3 jars in total this year, probably in jest.
The bees may be surviving but they don't seem to be doing what healthy bees should be doing. I liken it to having a cat with worms, it lives but is it fully at the height of it's potential fitness?
I do stand to be corrected on my thoughts.

Currently three filled supers on one hive... 2 filled supers on another.. 1 on a colony established in May. There are stores in all the brood boxes and they are still bringing it in. There are strong laying queens now in all six hives.. one was a cut out from a compost bin about 6 weeks ago and I'm just looking to maintain that and get it through winter - doing very nicely at present. The other two colonies were splits with new queens who took forever to start laying but both are doing nicely now with lots of bees ... plenty of honey in the brood box but as they are 14x12 I've not bothered putting supers on as they were new boxes and they have been comb building.

I've taken the view that the bees progress at the rate they want to ... I reckon there's a tidy honey crop from what has been a pretty lousy season and a year of expansion for me. I've had a few jars already and if they don't eat everything in this rotten weather weather we're having at present I expect to harvest a few more jars. I tend to refrain from the my crop's bigger than your crop game as the bees produce what they produce, I don't rely on my bees for an income, it's a hobby - I'm learning and enjoying my beekeeping - if I get three jars I'll be happy if I get more I'll be delighted.

 

[pargyle]

I humbly suggest you need a control experiment. Treat half and see if they do better then your untreated. Otherwise you may simply be allowing heavily paratisized bees to live a miserable existence and never know what they might be capable of.

See above ... I check PROPERLY for varroa by uncapping drone cells, I count mite drop on a daily basis and have done sugar rolls on the three newer colonies I have ... very low mite counts. No signs of DWV, No signs of any brood disease ... queens laying good patterns of brood. Honey stores and bees flying at every opportunity. Wasps around but being seen off by guard bees.

Doesn't sound like bees living a miserable existence as far as I can tell .. if it ain't broke why try to fix it or even look for explanations ?

 

[stilllearning]

Blimey.......I must have been living under a rock , all these statistics, I best give up now .
Beekeeping is incredibly simple, so why over complicate it ??
Varroa is here and here to stay. Like all pests you have good years and bad years, whether you treat or don't treat is entirely up to the individual and whatever you do the main thing is you learn from it, that's all you can do.
If a "super bee" could be bred do you not think it would have been done already. Like conquering EFB . In a hundred years we know what causes it we know how it spreads we know the symptoms but it's still here, good years and bad years.
By the way...my hives are triple brood , I get at least 350 lb per hive and they do it all in a day, aren't I brilliant !!!