Varroa...to treat or not to treat

[fred scuttle]

And that sausage like dog barking all the time.

Proper funny.... Who needs pay tv with entertainment like this!

 

[fred scuttle]

Sorry JBM just realised that this looks like I'm taking sides in this exchange..I'm not but did find all comments amusing, including the one from the sausage dog!

 

[Finman]

Proper funny.... Who needs pay tv with entertainment like this!

To me best entertaiment is when I read how forum beekeepers make syrup and second drama is, what to do with varroa

Part I : Feed or not feed

Part II: Treat or not to treat

 

[Tremyfro]

To me best entertaiment is when I read how forum beekeepers make syrup and second drama is, what to do with varroa

Part I : Feed or not feed

Part II: Treat or not to treat

Although this post has gone somewhat off piste...it has been amusing in parts.
Seriously though...it is important to decide at what point a treatment is required. To not treat automatically. That is how resistances occur.
Having put in the varroa boards to see what natural drop of varroa there is....very interesting to see such variation from my colonies.
Now does that mean some of them are really fantastic at grooming themselves and each other....so the drop is high and there aren't many varroa actually on the bees.......or does it mean that some of the colonies with a very low drop don't have any varroa to speak of or are just lazy useless groomers?
This is the point about natural drop...we may be treating the good groomers when they don't need it....or of course they may have so many varroa they they are dropping off as the bees move about.

 

[Finman]

Although this post has gone somewhat off piste...it has been amusing in parts.
Seriously though...it is important to decide at what point a treatment is required. To not treat automatically. That is how resistances occur.
Having put in the varroa boards to see what natural drop of varroa there is....very interesting to see such variation from my colonies.
Now does that mean some of them are really fantastic at grooming themselves and each other....so the drop is high and there aren't many varroa actually on the bees.......or does it mean that some of the colonies with a very low drop don't have any varroa to speak of or are just lazy useless groomers?
This is the point about natural drop...we may be treating the good groomers when they don't need it....or of course they may have so many varroa they they are dropping off as the bees move about.

All what you write, is pure dreaming. But dreaming is important part of hobby beekeeping.

If you know, how much efforts are needed to rear mite resistant bee stock, then you could understand that what you do, it has nothing to do with reality.

15 years ago it was recommended with Apistan, that use only if necessary,, because the stuff accumulated into comb wax.

But keep your dreams. No one can help you then.

 

[pargyle]

Having put in the varroa boards to see what natural drop of varroa there is....very interesting to see such variation from my colonies.

Now does that mean some of them are really fantastic at grooming themselves and each other....so the drop is high and there aren't many varroa actually on the bees.......or does it mean that some of the colonies with a very low drop don't have any varroa to speak of or are just lazy useless groomers?
This is the point about natural drop...we may be treating the good groomers when they don't need it....or of course they may have so many varroa they they are dropping off as the bees move about.

That's the reason that just relying on mite drop on the board is so unreliable .. if you are going to consider not treating then you must have a realistic view of the varroa situation in the colony. Mite counting (I have found) is not the whole story ... you need to do more-

1. Sugar rolls or Alcohol washes on about 100+ bees from near the brood area - make sure you don't get the queen. The actual mite count from this will be somewhere between neglible and 10. In the upper numbers I would suggest treatment is essential.

2. Drone cell uncapping .. Fork out as many drone cells as you can spare - I usually do between 20 and 30 ... Look at the drone pupa - are there little brown spots on the larvae ? These are infant varroa. Again .. high numbers of infested cells and you will need to treat.

3. You need to know your bees .. I look daily for signs of any bees with deformities or not behaving in what is (from my observations) a 'normal' manner - lethargic or erratic movements, reluctance to fly etc. etc. It's often a sign of disease and disease will occur when you have a weak colony (IMO) - a weak colony will often be infested with varroa and disease like DWV will be vectored by the mites.

4. With clear crownboards you can watch the bees at the top of the hive - I have top bee space - you can see at close hand if there are mites attached to bees - I've never seen a mite attached to any of my bees doing this but I have seen a badly infested colony and you can see the mites on the bees - at this stage you have a problem and treatment is needed urgently.

As I have often said - non treatment is a time consuming path to follow, it's not one you can easily follow if your bees are not on your doorstep. The easier route (as most suggest) is to hit mites hard once a year - the current flavour of the month is OA sublimation and I have to say (again) - if, in the event my bees looked like they needed treatment, this is my favoured option. I've seen it working - the bees are hardly stressed by it, the kill rate could only be described as phenomenal and there appears to be little, if any, effect on the bees, the queens laying or the brood.

I'm not convinced that my bees are 'hygienic' ... I think there is more to it .. location, forage, weather, colony health, hive type, type of bee - who knows ? I certainly don't ! But don't be deluded by just a low mite drop on the board it's not a reliable indicator.

However, if you have a colony that appears to have a very low infestation then it's a good start to leave untreated - the beauty of OA sublimation is that it can be done at almost any point.

 

[Tremyfro]

That's the reason that just relying on mite drop on the board is so unreliable .. if you are going to consider not treating then you must have a realistic view of the varroa situation in the colony. Mite counting (I have found) is not the whole story ... you need to do more-

1. Sugar rolls or Alcohol washes on about 100+ bees from near the brood area - make sure you don't get the queen. The actual mite count from this will be somewhere between neglible and 10. In the upper numbers I would suggest treatment is essential.

2. Drone cell uncapping .. Fork out as many drone cells as you can spare - I usually do between 20 and 30 ... Look at the drone pupa - are there little brown spots on the larvae ? These are infant varroa. Again .. high numbers of infested cells and you will need to treat.

3. You need to know your bees .. I look daily for signs of any bees with deformities or not behaving in what is (from my observations) a 'normal' manner - lethargic or erratic movements, reluctance to fly etc. etc. It's often a sign of disease and disease will occur when you have a weak colony (IMO) - a weak colony will often be infested with varroa and disease like DWV will be vectored by the mites.

4. With clear crownboards you can watch the bees at the top of the hive - I have top bee space - you can see at close hand if there are mites attached to bees - I've never seen a mite attached to any of my bees doing this but I have seen a badly infested colony and you can see the mites on the bees - at this stage you have a problem and treatment is needed urgently.

As I have often said - non treatment is a time consuming path to follow, it's not one you can easily follow if your bees are not on your doorstep. The easier route (as most suggest) is to hit mites hard once a year - the current flavour of the month is OA sublimation and I have to say (again) - if, in the event my bees looked like they needed treatment, this is my favoured option. I've seen it working - the bees are hardly stressed by it, the kill rate could only be described as phenomenal and there appears to be little, if any, effect on the bees, the queens laying or the brood.

I'm not convinced that my bees are 'hygienic' ... I think there is more to it .. location, forage, weather, colony health, hive type, type of bee - who knows ? I certainly don't ! But don't be deluded by just a low mite drop on the board it's not a reliable indicator.

However, if you have a colony that appears to have a very low infestation then it's a good start to leave untreated - the beauty of OA sublimation is that it can be done at almost any point.

At last...thank you...a clear pathway to follow....just what I was looking for...instead of sarcasm.
I realise , of course, that natural drop isn't to be relied on. I have uncapped drone brood...sometimes there are a few varroa...sometimes none.
I can certainly look through the clear crown boards.
It is easier to see the condition of the bees on the hives with landing boards...not all of them have a landing boards...but for those I have a slate under the hive which juts out...for them to land on. I will do more watching!
Sugar rolls...I can do.
It is better than blindly blanket treating but I wouldn't hesitate if required and I have a sublimator.
Clearly, just going ahead to treat for varroa is the easy option. I am not comfortable with that though. With our other animals...I would test for worms before worming and so on. It isn't the same as vaccination...where an immunity is created.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Maybe now the neonics isn't suppressing the grooming varroa will be less of a problem
Sent from my HTC One_M8 using Tapatalk

Eh?

it is important to decide at what point a treatment is required. To not treat automatically. That is how resistances occur.
.

Maybe you could point us towrds the evidence of varroah becoming thymol tolerant - we all know about pyrethroids etc.

 

[Nige.Coll]

One of the effects on social insects like bees, termites and ants of neonics is to suppress the grooming instinct. In termites it was found the grooming was reduced to an amount that bacterial/fungal infections could take hold and wipe out the colony.
In bees the grooming instinct is also reduced. Less grooming is more varroa.


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[mbc]

Eh?



Maybe you could point us towrds the evidence of varroah becoming thymol tolerant - we all know about pyrethroids etc.

There's a thread on it on bee-l at the moment with a poster from Belgium and America both reporting less effective thymol treatments. I doubt it's resistance though, thymol is such a touchy feely sort of treatment all sorts of different parameters can change the outcome, size of colony, size of box, amount of ventilation, amount of brood and position, outside temperature, humidity and air flow all have a bearing on effectiveness just off the top of my head, there's probably loads more variables I haven't thought of. It only takes a few of these variables to favour the varroa to make the treatment obviously less effective, after all, even at its best it's never a 100% treatment.

 

[Finman]

There's a thread on it on bee-l at the moment with a poster from Belgium and America both reporting less effective thymol treatments. I doubt it's resistance though, thymol is such a touchy feely sort of treatment all sorts of different parameters can change the outcome, size of colony, size of box, amount of ventilation, amount of brood and position, outside temperature, humidity and air flow all have a bearing on effectiveness just off the top of my head, there's probably loads more variables I haven't thought of. It only takes a few of these variables to favour the varroa to make the treatment obviously less effective, after all, even at its best it's never a 100% treatment.

Honey Paw company, which sells our thymol pads, it says that efficacy is about 80%. We give pads during winter food feeding. There are brood in the hive then and it reduces efficacy.

 

[Tremyfro]

Eh?



Maybe you could point us towrds the evidence of varroah becoming thymol tolerant - we all know about pyrethroids etc.

Oh...did I mention thymol?...I didn't remember mentioning thymol....I didn't mention oxalic acid either. I fact I didn't mention any specific varrocide.
My choice of treatment would be sublimated OA ...if I were to treat. Unless something else is an improvement.

 

[Finman]

.
I have not seen researches that varroa has become resistant agaist thymol, formic acid of oxalic acid. Surely our specialists warn other beekeepers if that happens. We have very high quality guys in those jobs.

America is coming 15 years after European knowledge in varroa. And forum discussions without university researches has no value.

 

[B+.]

America is coming 15 years after European knowledge in varroa.

I'm sorry Finman but thats not correct.
All the work on VSH was conducted at the USDA. Europe is playing "catch-up" on VSH

 

[Finman]

I'm sorry Finman but thats not correct.
All the work on VSH was conducted at the USDA. Europe is playing "catch-up" on VSH

Look at the history of European Union Varroa Group. Talk then.

 

[B+.]

Look at the history of European Union Varroa Group. Talk then.

Please provide a reference. I can't find anything with a Google search

 

[Finman]

Please provide a reference. I can't find anything with a Google search

I toggle smart phone I cannot link. But you allready know the works of European Union Varroa Group. Project started 1998. Easy to find lots of material in years 1998 - 2006
There was an English guy in the name must but he did not participated to the group.

Google and you find them. i have linked those reports in this forum 59 times.

A Swiss Agroscope has documented those works very well into internet.

 

[Finman]

.
If you put into google "varroa group Nanetti", you get good material about varroa treatment.

Nanetti is a famous beekeeping professor in Italy.


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