Varroa...to treat or not to treat

[psafloyd]

I had a heavy infestation last year, so did the usual Apiguard and oxalic and I am hoping it won't be so heavy this year, but that remains to be seen.

 

[Tremyfro]

This year ...so far..the varroa counts are low...since I did a spring vapourisation.
I meant...a icing sugar roll...you know where you put a cup of bees in a jar with a tablespoon of icing sugar...shake for a while...then turn upside down to shake out the sugar plus any varroa. I didn't mean sprinkling with icing sugar...

 

[For want of a better word]

Someone will post the web pages links etc... I am just taking a break from extraction.

(Ha ha some of these threads are like pulling teeth!)

Oxallic acid dribble in deep midwinter will shorten lifespan of queen, not a problem if you buy in a new queen every Spring.

Yeghes da

 

[fred scuttle]

Someone will post the web pages links etc... I am just taking a break from extraction.

(Ha ha some of these threads are like pulling teeth!)

Oxallic acid dribble in deep midwinter will shorten lifespan of queen, not a problem if you buy in a new queen every Spring.

Yeghes da

That's something I haven't heard of before Icanhopit, is it proven to reduce the lifespan of the Queen? Also, any other Q related issues known about caused by Winter treating with oxalic?

 

[Thymallus]

Oxallic acid dribble in deep midwinter will shorten lifespan of queen,

Be interesting to see references to data/research for this statement.
I've always thought this was yet another anecdotal myth.

 

[For want of a better word]

Be interesting to see references to data/research for this statement.
I've always thought this was yet another anecdotal myth.

Possibly is... But I READ it somewhere...

Reminds me of my granddad... Look it bloody true its in the bloody newspaper boyo!!

( Daily Mail reader!!!)

Yeghes da

 

[Tremyfro]

I hope it isn't true as I would like my older queens to get through this winter for spring build up.

 

[Thymallus]

Possibly is... But I READ it somewhere...

A certain amount of misinformation is to be expected, but not helpful.

 

[pargyle]

I don't treat, have not lost a colony yet, bees are healthy, very low drop and no signs of any disease ... but even if they were showing signs of an unmanageable infestation I would only use OA sublimation.

Opening the hive in midwinter and pouring OA over my bees is a treatment that cannot possibly be good for them -when there are so many good reports about how little sublimation affects the colony and how effective it is in mite kill terms it makes little sense to me to be sticking to the 'old ways'.

If your colony demonstrates (after investigation and monitoring) that they are affected by varroa and you feel you must treat in order to maintain the health of the colony then treatment with OA Sublimation is really a no-brainer.

 

[Ely]

I don't see the point in paying for/storing extra equipment when dribbling is just as effective. You say tomato, I say umm tomato

 

[Finman]

Oxallic acid dribble in deep midwinter will shorten lifespan of queen,]

You have no evidences about that.
Rumours exist, but no research data, which confirms that

Formic acid kills queens.

...that famous "how learn away" phenomenom....

 

[Finman]

.
Dribling twice a Winter is normal procedure nowadays in Finland. First in November, and second after cleansing flight in Marsh.

Queen breeders use as mother queens 4 y old queens, which have not never swarmed.

Idea of oxalic trickling is to prolong lifespan of colony and queen. Not to shorten.
.

 

[Finman]

.
15 years ago, when oxalic drippling was in its early start, it was said that only once a year.
. Some hobby beekeepers invented that it means that "only once in queen life time".

Later it has been found, that there is no such limitation.

Oxalic drippling affects one month. UK has not so long broodless period that you get advantage with two drippling.

 

[Plenty of honey]

We were discussing this last night with some other beekeepers in my local area who all follow the political message that here, the local bee group says you must treat with Amitraze based treatment or MAQ's. which seems to have some effect and i know lots will argue that that seems to be working.

I dont disagree that some form of treatment might be necessary and were told of this period, (about now)when the percentage mite infestation rises above the population of bees , as bees numbers start to fall.
For me, i am not convinced at all.
Why are we still catching swarms in the spring and Summer. How are my local feral or wild colonies able to be strong enough to be able to naturally do what they do? Theres no doubt in my mind that they have some degree of resistance or they have evolved to clean themselves.

Some really interesting studies have come out of America following a study of preserved bees samples, Taken before and after the arrival of Varroa. The overall results seems to suggest that the genetics diversity of the bees sampled after the arrival of Varroa seem to be reduced, meaning certain genetics have been lost during the bees attempt to deal with this new invasive pest. At the same time, with all animals, this clearly shows that this is normal evolution and our bees are so dynamic, that they have evolved a lot quicker over the last 30 years or so, not as we previously expected , over thousands of years.


So where does this leave us with the treat or not to treat? I think its still a close call.
This year i trapped or caught over 20 swarms, the majority were of wild origin and were pretty runny, black bees we get here in Brittany. However i am loathed to re queen this stock as i cant help but think its the stock we should be selecting from and grafting from its best atributes.

I also have had my best year ever, with two great honey crops, made lots of queens and lots of colonies, so i must be doing something right. all my stock originated from wild or feral caught colonies.

Personally I treat with Vaporised oxalic acid in bloodless colonies in November. My Mite drop is huge, but does that mean I have too higher infestation, or does that mean i have a very effective control that dosent kill 96% of varroa and leave a resistant core of 4% that breed throughout the winter and breed the super varroa that were struggling to control the following year???

I also think its good to select "Varroa sensitive stock". We should be looking in open frames of non sealed brood, as previously we looked in closed brood where the problem is confuse with "spotty poorly laying queens". Good Varroa sensitive stock may well be a colonie that "yanks" out the infected larvae before it is sealed over.

I dont think anyone has the right answer but i believe many beekeepers dont have all the information and are not able to understand the issues and are being led down the wrong road of treatment with long chain molecular chemicals, which are more prone to breeding super mites that become more and more resistant over time.

Its about time beekeepers were able to decide for themselves and treat accordingly. What appears to me is that many beekeepers just dont understand the full picture!!

 

[Gilberdyke John]

We were discussing this last night with some other beekeepers in my local area who all follow the political message that here, the local bee group says you must treat with Amitraze based treatment or MAQ's.

I was told everyone else found Varroa rapidly evolved to make synthetic varroacides ineffective. It's said that discontinuing their use may reduce their tolerance over a number of years but I'm baffled as to why your local bee group are promoting regular repeated use of Amitraz. Is resistance being monitored?

 

[Plenty of honey]

its beyond me too, our local bee group needs a radical overhaul!! i intend to start but its not easy!!!

 

[For want of a better word]

We were discussing this last night with some other beekeepers in my local area who all follow the political message that here, the local bee group says you must treat with Amitraze based treatment or MAQ's. which seems to have some effect and i know lots will argue that that seems to be working.

I dont disagree that some form of treatment might be necessary and were told of this period, (about now)when the percentage mite infestation rises above the population of bees , as bees numbers start to fall.
For me, i am not convinced at all.
Why are we still catching swarms in the spring and Summer. How are my local feral or wild colonies able to be strong enough to be able to naturally do what they do? Theres no doubt in my mind that they have some degree of resistance or they have evolved to clean themselves.

Some really interesting studies have come out of America following a study of preserved bees samples, Taken before and after the arrival of Varroa. The overall results seems to suggest that the genetics diversity of the bees sampled after the arrival of Varroa seem to be reduced, meaning certain genetics have been lost during the bees attempt to deal with this new invasive pest. At the same time, with all animals, this clearly shows that this is normal evolution and our bees are so dynamic, that they have evolved a lot quicker over the last 30 years or so, not as we previously expected , over thousands of years.


So where does this leave us with the treat or not to treat? I think its still a close call.
This year i trapped or caught over 20 swarms, the majority were of wild origin and were pretty runny, black bees we get here in Brittany. However i am loathed to re queen this stock as i cant help but think its the stock we should be selecting from and grafting from its best atributes.

I also have had my best year ever, with two great honey crops, made lots of queens and lots of colonies, so i must be doing something right. all my stock originated from wild or feral caught colonies.

Personally I treat with Vaporised oxalic acid in bloodless colonies in November. My Mite drop is huge, but does that mean I have too higher infestation, or does that mean i have a very effective control that dosent kill 96% of varroa and leave a resistant core of 4% that breed throughout the winter and breed the super varroa that were struggling to control the following year???

I also think its good to select "Varroa sensitive stock". We should be looking in open frames of non sealed brood, as previously we looked in closed brood where the problem is confuse with "spotty poorly laying queens". Good Varroa sensitive stock may well be a colonie that "yanks" out the infected larvae before it is sealed over.

I dont think anyone has the right answer but i believe many beekeepers dont have all the information and are not able to understand the issues and are being led down the wrong road of treatment with long chain molecular chemicals, which are more prone to breeding super mites that become more and more resistant over time.

Its about time beekeepers were able to decide for themselves and treat accordingly. What appears to me is that many beekeepers just dont understand the full picture!!

Refreshing and satisfying to read of a beekeeper on the right track... working with the local ( ?Amm) population, recognising that due to the environment the native bees have adapted to that they are strong enough to overcome novel parasites and viral diseases, that perhaps the greatly modifies hybrids available are more likely to succumb to.
However long the stud book of introgression and gene swapping goes back!

I have noticed a level of "varroa tolerance" and cleanliness in the native Amm I keep .

On the precautionary principle alone I do not pour any acid over my bees... particularly in deepest midwinter, then the Tamar Valley is not North of the Arctik Cirkle!!

Yeghes da


Yeghes da

 

[madasafish]

Refreshing and satisfying to read of a beekeeper on the right track... working with the local ( ?Amm) population,

If I did that, I would have no bees.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I don't treat, have not lost a colony yet, bees are healthy, very low drop and no signs of any disease ... but even if they were showing signs of an unmanageable infestation I would only use OA sublimation.

Opening the hive in midwinter and pouring OA over my bees is a treatment that cannot possibly be good for them -when there are so many good reports about how little sublimation affects the colony and how effective it is in mite kill terms it makes little sense to me to be sticking to the 'old ways'.

If your colony demonstrates (after investigation and monitoring) that they are affected by varroa and you feel you must treat in order to maintain the health of the colony then treatment with OA Sublimation is really a no-brainer.

I have a colony treated with Apiguard last year that shows no mites, and another the same that was vaped. My third big colony is dropping ten a day which the calculator says is 400 mites. Apiguard dropped 8,000 out of it a year ago and it was my weakest producer this year (about 75lb). I have no signs of varroosis. Certainly they are there (open entrances inches apart all summer) and Probably earwigs ate a lot of mites off the boards but still I am inclined just to vape the one colony. Damn mites do complicate matters.

 

[beeno]

If your winter bees are compromised by Varroa then the colony will not survive to make its spring bees. The colony will die in Jan/Feb thereof the autumn treatment. If you don't treat your bees for varroa then you will initially have heavy losses which B+ has been honest enough to admit to and most beeks don't. In the mid to long term you may have bees that can cope better with varro. You make your choices.