Varroa...to treat or not to treat

[Finman]

.
There are bees in France, which stand varroa and stay alive. Their yield were reseached, and noticed that yield is half of normal hives.

Half.... And what do you earn in honey busines then?
You have incomes, lets say 100
and then reduce production costs, 80
And your netto is 20

In tox free alternative incomes are 50
And production costs 80
Netto is -30

 

[Plenty of honey]

I dont disagree with what your saying Finman, All i am saying is that its about getting a balance.
I am not saying that local mongrel bees are the best, indeed their very difficult to work with but perhaps we should be looking at this survivor stock to give us better Varroa resistance, in some way!!!

 

[Finman]

I dont disagree with what your saying Finman, All i am saying is that its about getting a balance.
I am not saying that local mongrel bees are the best, indeed their very difficult to work with but perhaps we should be looking at this survivor stock to give us better Varroa resistance, in some way!!!

Perhaps....

I say that local mongrels are rubbish. All breeding is based on selection. Mongrels are not selected. What is local? USA size or Tamar Valley size? ... That local is actually empty word.

If you do not select your bee stock, you stand among that gang which do not mind much about bees and and about the nursing skills. Do nothing guys.

Actually " local do nothing guys"

I know lots of splended management systems, but if they gives half of my yield, I am not interested. I have read here that excluders and mesh floors keep diseases away. ... Better to say nothing to those super beeks.

Varroa has killed so much my hives, that For that reason I have tried to advice, how to kill mites.
Teaching is impossible, if a beek does not want to hear advices. But life teaches.

 

[B+.]

Teaching is impossible, if a beek does not want to hear advices. But life teaches.

Those are very wise words Finman.

 

[Amari]

If your winter bees are compromised by Varroa then the colony will not survive to make its spring bees. The colony will die in Jan/Feb thereof the autumn treatment. If you don't treat your bees for varroa then you will initially have heavy losses which B+ has been honest enough to admit to and most beeks don't. In the mid to long term you may have bees that can cope better with varro. You make your choices.

Did you read BBKA News August 2015, p270, 'Winter Colony Losses, Does Varroa Treatment Alter Outcome?'? The article quotes annual results of Meirionnydd BKA winter loss survey 2011-2015 published in The Welsh Beekeeper. The results showed that over 1500 colony-winters the winter loss for untreated colonies was 13% and for treated colonies 19%. The BBKA summary suggests that this difference 'is unlikely to be statistically different' (any statisticians on the Forum, it sounds significant to me?). The article concludes 'these results show that no reduction in winter losses was gained by chemically treating'.

 

[Finman]

Did you read BBKA News August 2015, p270, 'Winter Colony Losses, Does Varroa Treatment Alter Outcome?'? The article quotes annual results of Meirionnydd BKA winter loss survey 2011-2015 published in The Welsh Beekeeper. The results showed that over 1500 colony-winters the winter loss for untreated colonies was 13% and for treated colonies 19%. The BBKA summary suggests that this difference 'is unlikely to be statistically different' (any statisticians on the Forum, it sounds significant to me?). The article concludes 'these results show that no reduction in winter losses was gained by chemically treating'.

I cannot believe that some one still doupts about the danger of varroa.

Heh heh he!!!!

Varroa is the most dangerous disease of the bee but treatment is even more dangerous. And if succeed to treet the bees, you will be soon in English prison.

Our main teacher of national beekeeping society has 1500 own hives.
He told in phone cohple years ago that he is in a hurry to inspect 100 hives yard. Every single hive is dead. Later he told that reason was varroa. The owner had 30 years experience, but treatment timing was too late.

My friend produce 3000 kg honey a year and last 4 years winter losses are zero.
He uses thymol in September during feeding and oxalic in winter.

I treated first time my hives 1987 with Perizin. My friend had 60 hives in that year and he told that he has mites. Mite medicins were illegal in Finland 1987, but I offered my stuff for free. My friend said:"let it be now. Lets look next summer". He lost 30 hives and he depressed so much that he gove up almost from beekeeping.

Yeah. I have treated my hives almost 30 years. I can only say that varroa is now much more dangerous than 20 years ago.

I have teached 10 years British beekeepers, what to do with varroa. What I have got? .... 2 hive owners start to teach me how they have mite resistant bees from blessed shurch chimney.

I am not in any shurch. I think that Lord prefer to send into my hive supermites. I want not to try local church bees.

 

[beebot]

% winter lose is not the whole story.

How strong where the hive in comparison. There is a difference between a colony just about getting through winter and a colony which comes through winter strong.

For example during our bad winter a few years back I had 0% loses. That sounds great but in fact 2 of the 3 colonies were so weak they took all year to recover.
That's the problem with statistics; Often you need more of them to get a true picture rather than something in isolation.

 

[pargyle]

I have teached 10 years British beekeepers, what to do with varroa. What I have got? .... 2 hive owners start to teach me how they have mite resistant bees from blessed shurch chimney.

Your usual rant at this time of the year ... only thing missing is 'Your bees will DIE if you don't treat'.

So.... How do you explain the fact that quite a number of beekeepers over here (I know of at least 7 or 8 local to me) that are not treating for varroa - and have been for some years - do not have their bees are not dying out ? The winter losses in the people that I know have been no more than those who have treated and in some cases are less.

Indeed, there are a number of non-treaters on this forum .. and some who are only treating when a colony is showing signs of a heavy infestation ... as well.

We are not all 2 hive owners or abject liars ....

My bees are healthy and thriving - I'm happy for anyone to look at them. There are varroa in the hives but the indications are that the bees are coping with the low level of infestation - indeed, they may be managing it but I have no way of being certain at the moment.

You talk from years of watching your colonies die from the results of varroa - well - despite your concern over the last few years mine have not died, so all I can report is what I have seen in recent times, in the UK not Finland - and not in 1987 !

 

[sipa]

going to put this in a new thread

 

[Finman]

% winter lose is not the whole story.

How strong where the hive in comparison. There is a difference

For example during our bad winter a few years back I had 0% loses. That sounds great but in fact 2 of the 3 colonies were so weak they took all year to recover.
.

That is more important than count dead hives . Mostly varroa reduces cluster size and it takes lots of time that colony is able to get yield. Half summer is often gone.

 

[Finman]

.
Pargyle with 2 years experience.
2-hive owners cannot lie because they do not know how things are. They just talk.

Pargyle, I remenber when You hade nursed your only swarm 2 months and you knew double so much what I had learned in 50 years.

You are from outer space. I have Net those guys some.

 

[beeno]

Did you read BBKA News August 2015, p270, 'Winter Colony Losses, Does Varroa Treatment Alter Outcome?'? The article quotes annual results of Meirionnydd BKA winter loss survey 2011-2015 published in The Welsh Beekeeper. The results showed that over 1500 colony-winters the winter loss for untreated colonies was 13% and for treated colonies 19%. The BBKA summary suggests that this difference 'is unlikely to be statistically different' (any statisticians on the Forum, it sounds significant to me?). The article concludes 'these results show that no reduction in winter losses was gained by chemically treating'.

I did read it and for some reason I thought it not significant.

 

[beeno]

% winter lose is not the whole story.

How strong where the hive in comparison. There is a difference between a colony just about getting through winter and a colony which comes through winter strong.

For example during our bad winter a few years back I had 0% loses. That sounds great but in fact 2 of the 3 colonies were so weak they took all year to recover.
That's the problem with statistics; Often you need more of them to get a true picture rather than something in isolation.

Well said. Lies, damned lies and statistics.

 

[beeno]

Your usual rant at this time of the year ... only thing missing is 'Your bees will DIE if you don't treat'.

So.... How do you explain the fact that quite a number of beekeepers over here (I know of at least 7 or 8 local to me) that are not treating for varroa - and have been for some years - do not have their bees are not dying out ? The winter losses in the people that I know have been no more than those who have treated and in some cases are less.

Indeed, there are a number of non-treaters on this forum .. and some who are only treating when a colony is showing signs of a heavy infestation ... as well.

We are not all 2 hive owners or abject liars ....

My bees are healthy and thriving - I'm happy for anyone to look at them. There are varroa in the hives but the indications are that the bees are coping with the low level of infestation - indeed, they may be managing it but I have no way of being certain at the moment.

You talk from years of watching your colonies die from the results of varroa - well - despite your concern over the last few years mine have not died, so all I can report is what I have seen in recent times, in the UK not Finland - and not in 1987 !

The long mild season gave bees ample time to get reinfected despite treatment. Your time will come early days yet. I remember when you used to say you did not have any varroa in your hive. Sweet isn't it with hindsight.

 

[Finman]

.
In June and July I was very satiefied with mite situation. I met only one more in drone brood when Splitted them.

Now during last weeks I have seen quite much free on bees back and in some hives bees have made small holes into drone capping. Lots of mites in brood.

Pargyle may have so healthy hives as he wants, but I want next summer very good yield. I nurse,my hives and he nurse his hives. Nothing to learn from each others.

 

[Ely]

I wonder how many of the forums none treater's would admit to losing a colony to varroa when the time came. No doubt somehow varroa wouldn't be the cause in their situation. We all like to save face.

 

[Amari]

I did read it and for some reason I thought it not significant.

Please come in Welsh beekeepers

 

[Thymallus]

What I find quite interesting is that our varroa breeders never boast about their honey yields. I do recall Pargyle saying 3 jars in total this year, probably in jest.
The bees may be surviving but they don't seem to be doing what healthy bees should be doing. I liken it to having a cat with worms, it lives but is it fully at the height of it's potential fitness?
I do stand to be corrected on my thoughts.

 

[beebot]

What I find quite interesting is that our varroa breeders never boast about their honey yields. I do recall Pargyle saying 3 jars in total this year, probably in jest.
The bees may be surviving but they don't seem to be doing what healthy bees should be doing. I liken it to having a cat with worms, it lives but is it fully at the height of it's potential fitness?
I do stand to be corrected on my thoughts.

This would be one of the other statistic that needs to be considered; honey yield. I think people are not talking about the same situation - For a full view we need to look at;

Treated vs non-treated and look at

% loses: strength of hive in spring: honey yield: Did the hive swarm last year: age of queen going into winter

Putting all that together and we would be getting somewhere rather than the continual roundabout 'debate'.

 

[B+.]

What I find quite interesting is that our varroa breeders never boast about their honey yields.
I do stand to be corrected on my thoughts.

You need to understand how the breeding value is calculated:
15% - Honey yield
15% - Defensive behaviour
15% - Calmness during inspections
15% - Swarm drive
40% - Varroa index

although these will be adjusted as the chalkbrood index is included in future years.

These are averages against a 5-year mean so any score greater than 100% is an increase.
My breeders for next year have a honey yield score of 109% while the drone mother I intend to use has a scote of 116%. The progeny should have an average score of (109 + 116) / 2 = 112.5%
It is misleading to look at an absolute values as they fail to take account of good years or bad years. However, a steadily increasing breeding value tells you that your breeding material is improving against the mean.