Treating bee stings with heat.

[Rory Fields]

I'm afraid I'm still unconvinced, and I'd say your experience doesn't discount the possibility of it being a placebo. This stuff is "difficult" and it's well understood that people can play all sorts of mind games with themselves in such situations. Such weird games that I'm sure I've read in some situations placebos can actually be demonstrated to have a measurable effect even when the patient knows they're being given a placebo. Perhaps in Ben Goldacre's "Bad Science" book (showing slight signs of age now given that it was published about fifteen years ago, but still an excellent read by the way).

Initially I'd have to wonder what evidence there is that bicarb of soda in toothpaste can pass through the skin when rubbed. One of the purposes of skin is, after all, to stop stuff on the outside getting inside. Also, wasp stings are alkaline and we react to those, so as you have no control over how much bicarb might enter your system (assuming it actually can) why would you not then have a reaction to having too much? I'd also question why, given that the amount of venom injected is tiny and that blood is alkaline, the body couldn't neutralise the acid itself fairly quickly.

And finally (for the moment at least whilst bee venom may be acidic and wasp venom alkaline, as far as I'm aware they both cause pain because they contain amino acids (melittin, in the case of honey bees?) that trigger pain sensors. Amino acids are a very important part of our metabolism -- amongst other things they're used to build proteins, so if you're introducing something into your body that interferes with their action that's quite possibly not going to end well. However I'm not actually certain that all amino acids are in fact acidic and melittin may be one of the ones that isn't, but we're way above my pay grade at this point.

James

Sorry, I only belatedly saw your message. You're right, and I acknowledged as much vis a vis confirmation bias and placebo, but I'm not selling anything and nor am I egotistical enough to need to 'win' some argument with you - I frankly know v little, something I enjoy the bees reminding me of (most of the time!) - but like I said, try it before you knock it, perhaps you'll respond to the placebo or genuine efficacy, I dunno. The one thing I'd clarify though is that I don't mean the toothpaste permeates the skin to any degree - I mean that when you remove an intact sting and there's often that tiny red puncture hole (my eyes at 36 are only JUST good enough to see this in a mirror) - ensure you rub the toothpaste on there, at first the hole will reappear amidst the patch of toothpaste on your skin so I presume either some fluid is either coming in or out, but a big blob if you're sure of the exact site works too (for me). Like I say, not trying to sell you something or even claim it's a particularly original hack, but feel free to tell me it doesn't work after trying it a number of times. I don't mind being wrong at all - it's my default setting tbh! ;-p Just works for me by whatever mechanism, mental or physical; if I can get the sting out swiftly, hope it saves someone else the discomfort! Wikipedia on amino acids was above my non-existent pay grade - I honestly hadn't even realised all amino acids weren't protein so, like I say, know v little - just find it works for me, particularly as anti-histamine meds interact badly with my other meds. I'd be genuinely interested to know how you get on if you're willing to give it a go? Equally, any other hypothesis I'm happy to try for myself - we're all just learning all the time, one of the reasons I love beekeeping and this forum. Best, Ror

 

[Malcolm B.]

Typically in these sensation pathways, once sensation is detected the signal is passed between 3-4 nerve cells to reach the brain.

At last! I've finally discovered why I have absolutely no reactions to bee stings!

"The signal is passed between 3-4 nerve cells, then . . . ". nothing!! In my body there is nothing for it to reach and nowhere for it to go next! Q.E.D.
Thanks,
Malcolm B

 

[Paulypaul]

I react to bee stings and when inspecting take a couple of antihistamines tablets beforehand. When I first got stung the symptoms lasted nearly a week, itching and swelling of the area. I used eurax cream to reduce the itching. But the upside was it eased arthritis at the sting site. Now if stung, reaction lasts only a day; but the downside to this is my arthritis is not improved for as long. I understand that research is ongoing into bee venom and its effects on treatment of arthritis. In my case it definitely helps my arthritis although may not in other people.
John

I get a reaction for a month after the sting.

 

[Wilco]

Sorry, I only belatedly saw your message. You're right, and I acknowledged as much vis a vis confirmation bias and placebo, but I'm not selling anything and nor am I egotistical enough to need to 'win' some argument with you - I frankly know v little, something I enjoy the bees reminding me of (most of the time!) - but like I said, try it before you knock it, perhaps you'll respond to the placebo or genuine efficacy, I dunno. The one thing I'd clarify though is that I don't mean the toothpaste permeates the skin to any degree - I mean that when you remove an intact sting and there's often that tiny red puncture hole (my eyes at 36 are only JUST good enough to see this in a mirror) - ensure you rub the toothpaste on there, at first the hole will reappear amidst the patch of toothpaste on your skin so I presume either some fluid is either coming in or out, but a big blob if you're sure of the exact site works too (for me). Like I say, not trying to sell you something or even claim it's a particularly original hack, but feel free to tell me it doesn't work after trying it a number of times. I don't mind being wrong at all - it's my default setting tbh! ;-p Just works for me by whatever mechanism, mental or physical; if I can get the sting out swiftly, hope it saves someone else the discomfort! Wikipedia on amino acids was above my non-existent pay grade - I honestly hadn't even realised all amino acids weren't protein so, like I say, know v little - just find it works for me, particularly as anti-histamine meds interact badly with my other meds. I'd be genuinely interested to know how you get on if you're willing to give it a go? Equally, any other hypothesis I'm happy to try for myself - we're all just learning all the time, one of the reasons I love beekeeping and this forum. Best, Ror

All proteins are made of amino acids. Not all amino acids are proteins. It's a question of the size of the chain.

 

[user 23149]

I'm afraid I am a bit late to this thread and 4 pages is alot to read! So the toothpaste trick - I don't know about how it works but it seems to help draw out infection. I have used it when my ingrown toenail gets infected, I apply it on a spot at night... My partner was having issues with a spot and the toothpaste trick worked well for him. Will try on a sting next time too.

Someone mentioned heat but I can't find the reference. I use heat on my eczema when it's itchy - the heat apparently breaks down the protein that makes it itchy. I get a mug of very hot of water (or coffee) and apply the mug directly on the skin, or take a REALLY hot shower. It has to be pretty hot so it's almost uncomfortable, but the itch goes away for nearly 12 hours.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Someone mentioned heat but I can't find the reference.

I don’t often get stung and even then the pain is intense for 30 seconds or so then that’s it. I usually get stung on a finger between the phalanges where it really does hurt so I immediately put my finger on my smoker and the pain is gone.

 

[JamezF]

So the toothpaste trick - I don't know about how it works but it seems to help draw out infection. I have used it when my ingrown toenail gets infected, I apply it on a spot at night

Some toothpastes contain anti-bacterial agents, I believe. That may explain your experience. Or it might actually do nothing and in those particular cases the infection may have cleared up without any treatment.

Determining whether a "medicine" is genuinely effective is really not easy and tests can be confounded by all sorts of issues, including the people conducting the tests. "I've tried it a few times and it worked" doesn't even begin to approach reliable evidence. How many people swear that rubbing dock leaves on nettle stings stops the pain? Yet there's no actual evidence that it does or even that it could. It's just a placebo. Ben Goldacre (referenced in an earlier post) explains many of the problems that face researchers in medicine. It's an excellent and very informative read. I'd have all school pupils read it as part of their PSHME (or whatever they're called these days) classes given the choice.

James

 

[Rory Fields]

All proteins are made of amino acids. Not all amino acids are proteins. It's a question of the size of the chain.

That was the point where Wikipedia and my lack of basic intelligence diverged

 

[JamezF]

That was the point where Wikipedia and my lack of basic intelligence diverged

I asked my son, who is doing a Natural Sciences degree but is turning into something of a hardcore chemist (and ballroom dancer, but that's not important right now ) to explain. I seem to be doing that more and more these days, but at least this time it didn't turn into a discussion on how easy it is to synthesise methamphetamine.

As I understand his explanation, an amino acid is a molecule formed by "hooking together" an amine, which is another molecule containing a nitrogen atom, a couple of hydrogens (so ammonia, basically) and some "other stuff", and a carboxylic acid, which is "more stuff" combined with a carbon, hydrogen and two oxygen atoms. Proteins are big chains of certain types of amino acids where the extra "stuff" is arranged in particular ways.

Hopefully that's accurate enough to be meaningful without horribly offending any biochemists present.

James

 

[wibble]

I'm afraid I'm still unconvinced, and I'd say your experience doesn't discount the possibility of it being a placebo. This stuff is "difficult" and it's well understood that people can play all sorts of mind games with themselves in such situations. Such weird games that I'm sure I've read in some situations placebos can actually be demonstrated to have a measurable effect even when the patient knows they're being given a placebo. Perhaps in Ben Goldacre's "Bad Science" book (showing slight signs of age now given that it was published about fifteen years ago, but still an excellent read by the way).

Initially I'd have to wonder what evidence there is that bicarb of soda in toothpaste can pass through the skin when rubbed. One of the purposes of skin is, after all, to stop stuff on the outside getting inside. Also, wasp stings are alkaline and we react to those, so as you have no control over how much bicarb might enter your system (assuming it actually can) why would you not then have a reaction to having too much? I'd also question why, given that the amount of venom injected is tiny and that blood is alkaline, the body couldn't neutralise the acid itself fairly quickly.

And finally (for the moment at least whilst bee venom may be acidic and wasp venom alkaline, as far as I'm aware they both cause pain because they contain amino acids (melittin, in the case of honey bees?) that trigger pain sensors. Amino acids are a very important part of our metabolism -- amongst other things they're used to build proteins, so if you're introducing something into your body that interferes with their action that's quite possibly not going to end well. However I'm not actually certain that all amino acids are in fact acidic and melittin may be one of the ones that isn't, but we're way above my pay grade at this point.

James

Hope you don't mind me pointing out a small error, melittin is not an amino acid but a peptide (a sort wanabe protein that doesn't quite have a long or complex enough chain.)