Treating bee stings with heat.

[Amari]

"Banger" firework dropped alight into copper tubing crimped at the end and buried in the ground pointing 45 degrees up. A glass marble dropped on top.
Thankfully no-one got in the way of this gun!! It went a long way!

Envy++ !

 

[JamezF]

"Banger" firework dropped alight into copper tubing crimped at the end and buried in the ground pointing 45 degrees up. A glass marble dropped on top.
Thankfully no-one got in the way of this gun!! It went a long way!

Some years back my son and I built a "potato cannon". It's tricky to describe, but was based on a 4" plastic soil pipe T piece. Both ends of the straight through part were capped off and a 2" pipe about three feet long sealed into one of the caps. The other opening in the T had a screw-on cap. A pair of wires with a gap between them fed through the cap opposite the one with the 2" pipe and were connected outside to the piezo-electric spark generator from a gas lighter. Finally the open end of the 2" pipe was filed to a sharp(-ish) edge.

An oversize potato could then be rammed down the 2" pipe (which would cut it to size thanks to the sharpened edge). The screw-on cap was removed and refitted after a quick squirt of hair spray into the T piece. The spark generator caused a spark between the wires inside, igniting the mixture of air and hair spray causing the potato to be ejected at some speed. We lost sight of the potato from the first test-firing when it was still going up. It might well be in orbit even now

James

 

[Sutty]

Some years back my son and I built a "potato cannon". It's tricky to describe, but was based on a 4" plastic soil pipe T piece. Both ends of the straight through part were capped off and a 2" pipe about three feet long sealed into one of the caps. The other opening in the T had a screw-on cap. A pair of wires with a gap between them fed through the cap opposite the one with the 2" pipe and were connected outside to the piezo-electric spark generator from a gas lighter. Finally the open end of the 2" pipe was filed to a sharp(-ish) edge.

An oversize potato could then be rammed down the 2" pipe (which would cut it to size thanks to the sharpened edge). The screw-on cap was removed and refitted after a quick squirt of hair spray into the T piece. The spark generator caused a spark between the wires inside, igniting the mixture of air and hair spray causing the potato to be ejected at some speed. We lost sight of the potato from the first test-firing when it was still going up. It might well be in orbit even now

James

Excellent stuff! Spuds away!
I remember igniting the jet of a can of Pledge produced a fabulous purple flamethrower

 

[blackcloud]

We used to wrap matches with tin foil and rest them on the hearth.
Lost one missile down the sofa and got a thick ear when parents discovered the project.

 

[Garry R]

Ah memories of our wonderful if slightly bonkers zoology lecturer Dr Gotto at QUB in the 80s. He was posted to several exotic locations whilst in the RAF (WW2). His lecture anecdotes included putting his arm on a Portuguese Man o' War to see if the reaction was as bad as his text books said. Apparently it was. "I say, I jolly well nearly lost the bally arm". They don't make em like that anymore alas.

I was at QUB from 1971 - 1974 and remember Dr Gotto. I think that as I have got older there seems to be a shortage of real characters in academia which is a great shame. They all seem to have to stick to the party line and certainly no thinking outside the box so many bits and pieces in research are not pursued.

 

[Sutty]

We used to wrap matches with tin foil and rest them on the hearth.
Lost one missile down the sofa and got a thick ear when parents discovered the project.

Anyone remember cap guns?
The "caps" were little dots about 3mm of percussion explosive on a long paper strip, intended to make a little bang with a toy gun one at a time.
While still at primary school (maybe aged 9-10) I discovered that if they were rolled up tightly and wrapped in several layers of tinfoil they would make a bang like a gunshot when hit with a decent sized rock.
It was impressive how quickly the teachers got from their brew room to the playground! I never got caught
I was evidently a reprobate from a young age!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

We were lucky - my friend had access to plenty of gunpowder and I found a thirty pound can of calcium carbide in my aunty Peggy's stables where we used to use to keep one of our horses - it was from when they had a shop next to the house.

 

[drex]

Made our own gunpowder as kids with ingredients from a chemist in town. No worries about health and safety, did not even consider it. Boy, did we make some bangs., and I still have 2 hands!

 

[Xander]

We used to put blank .22 cartridges on the gas cooker with a baking tin over the top.
Mother wasn't too pleased to find her cookware full of dents when she came to make the Sunday roast.
I'm sure we also used to hit gtn pills with a hammer to make them bang although it could have been some other explosive item. I was very young (about 7 as I remember).
I'm surprised I'm still here after some of the antics my brother and I got up to in the 70s & 80s.

 

[Rory Fields]

For a while I have been advocating using a heated teaspoon to reduce sting reactions.

I have seen this device “insect bite healer”

https://www.beurer.com/web/gb/products/medical/insect-bite-healer/br-90.php
which uses a heated ceramic disc which can be used directly.

I was wondering if anyone has experience of using it?

Toothpaste rubbed onto the site within 5mins of the sting and if you've definitely got it out, works a treat. Honestly, but nobody believes me- presume it's the bicarb

 

[Sutty]

What?! A thread that's gone back on topic!

 

[JamezF]

Toothpaste rubbed onto the site within 5mins of the sting and if you've definitely got it out, works a treat. Honestly, but nobody believes me- presume it's the bicarb

Hmmm. Have to admit that I'm unconvinced. But never underestimate the power of a placebo

James

 

[Sutty]

Hmmm. Have to admit that I'm unconvinced. But never underestimate the power of a placebo

James

Likewise - though I'm wondering if the massage of applying it is helpful.
Happy to try it!

 

[Xander]

I react quite badly to bee stings with a big ole itchy lump, but not wasp.
I've just bought some sting ease pen type applicators.
It states to use asap as I assume the venom won't have had time to spread and induce an histamine response. It's just ammonia with a bit of glycerine to neutralise the venom.
I don't know if ammonia is absorbed through the epidermis, maybe somebody else would know?
I've not had the opportunity to try it yet but I'll definitely also try the heat thing and see which works best although the last sting I received was on my upper inner thigh almost on my jewels so I wouldn't be stripping off in the field and wedging my smoker in there!!

 

[Rory Fields]

Hmmm. Have to admit that I'm unconvinced. But never underestimate the power of a placebo

James

Not a placebo - bee venom is v acidic with a pH around 5, so rubbing alkaline bicarbonate of soda as found in most proprietary toothpastes on the affected area, once the sting is removed and if done swiftly, neutralises it - I do think the rubbing is important though as if you just smear it on and leave it, it doesn't seem to work as well, so presumably rubbing it so that you ensure the toothpaste actually penetrates the sting area is the reason behind it. Just seemed logical to me so I tried it but obviously since it seemed logical to me there's room for confirmation bias so try it yourself - it definitely doesn't impress the bees though, they often become aggressive towards the area, presumably the menthol smell of toothpaste is not to their liking. Try it and see for yourself, can't discredit it if you've not tried it.

 

[Wilco]

Ok so with a sting there are a couple of processes going on. First there's the initial pain response, then there's activation of inflammation leading to swelling.

1. Pain. Pain signals are transmitted through nerve fibres. There are many different types of fibre which transmit at different speeds.

Typically in these sensation pathways, once sensation is detected the signal is passed between 3-4 nerve cells to reach the brain. However, once activated there is also a system causing a negative feedback loop to dampen down the signal so the pathway isn't constantly sending the signal unless the 'sensor' is repeatedly triggering.

Often the same sensor and signalling fibre networks that do touch/non-painful stimuli have a higher threshold which results in a pain signal being sent.

When pain activates this pathway, it typically overrides this negative feedback loop so the pain signal keeps going.

However, over-stimulating the area with a non-painful stimulus (potentially heat but often rubbing) can lead to transmission of touch type signals which leads to the negative feedback loop being reactivated, which acts to dampen down the perception of the painful stimulus.

This is why people will instinctively rub a sore area such as a sting. This brings us on to the second part of the response:

2. Local inflammation. It's possible that these heat based methods do something on this pain gating system but that does not explain the other part of the response, local inflammation- usually leading to swelling. If these devices lead to reduced swelling then something else must be going on (either as well as or alternatively to the first point).

The injection of venom leads to activation of inflammatory signalling pathways. This involves many signalling molecules and proteins. Ultimately this results in some or all the five parts of inflammation - heat, redness, swelling, pain and potentially loss of function. This will vary with the individual's response to the sting. I would hazard a guess that, if they're doing anything, the heat of these devices may also be interfering with the inflammatory signalling as well as the venom.

 

[polomadh]

I have to say, that after limited use as we have only had it for a couple of weeks now, that it has worked reasonably well. I am at a stage where I don’t react to bee venom, but it has worked well on horse fly bites. I realise they aren’t the same.

My partner did get a sting on the palm of her hand and it worked well for her, with no repeat of the large swelling she had following the sting on the back of her hand a few weeks ago. It could well be that she has already some resistance following the previous sting.

I would say that it is probably good for the odd sting, and probably wouldn’t help if you have anaphylaxis, I certainly wouldn’t want to test it.

I will continue to say how it goes

 

[Xander]

Ok so with a sting there are a couple of processes going on. First there's the initial pain response, then there's activation of inflammation leading to swelling.

1. Pain. Pain signals are transmitted through nerve fibres. There are many different types of fibre which transmit at different speeds.

Typically in these sensation pathways, once sensation is detected the signal is passed between 3-4 nerve cells to reach the brain. However, once activated there is also a system causing a negative feedback loop to dampen down the signal so the pathway isn't constantly sending the signal unless the 'sensor' is repeatedly triggering.

Often the same sensor and signalling fibre networks that do touch/non-painful stimuli have a higher threshold which results in a pain signal being sent.

When pain activates this pathway, it typically overrides this negative feedback loop so the pain signal keeps going.

However, over-stimulating the area with a non-painful stimulus (potentially heat but often rubbing) can lead to transmission of touch type signals which leads to the negative feedback loop being reactivated, which acts to dampen down the perception of the painful stimulus.

This is why people will instinctively rub a sore area such as a sting. This brings us on to the second part of the response:

2. Local inflammation. It's possible that these heat based methods do something on this pain gating system but that does not explain the other part of the response, local inflammation- usually leading to swelling. If these devices lead to reduced swelling then something else must be going on (either as well as or alternatively to the first point).

The injection of venom leads to activation of inflammatory signalling pathways. This involves many signalling molecules and proteins. Ultimately this results in some or all the five parts of inflammation - heat, redness, swelling, pain and potentially loss of function. This will vary with the individual's response to the sting. I would hazard a guess that, if they're doing anything, the heat of these devices may also be interfering with the inflammatory signalling as well as the venom.

I think you're right about there being various mechanisms at work.
I use a tens machine regularly and find that interfering with the signalling of pain (by electric shock in the case of tens or heat in the case of a hot spoon etc) is much much more effective than even the strong opiate painkillers I take.
I think this is because the former acts at the site of the pain to interfere with the signalling whereas the latter only acts on the brain's perception of pain so heat applied to the site if bearable is better than the pain from the sting.
As for the swelling etc, I think that's just down to the histamine and the best way to treat that would be systemic antihistamines and hydrocortisone at the site.
I was stung on the hand yesterday and used the sting pen (ammonia) which seemed maybe to ease it a bit but then I was bitten in the afternoon by an horsefly and my hand is now like a balloon. Sod's law

 

[JamezF]

Not a placebo - bee venom is v acidic with a pH around 5, so rubbing alkaline bicarbonate of soda as found in most proprietary toothpastes on the affected area, once the sting is removed and if done swiftly, neutralises it - I do think the rubbing is important though as if you just smear it on and leave it, it doesn't seem to work as well, so presumably rubbing it so that you ensure the toothpaste actually penetrates the sting area is the reason behind it. Just seemed logical to me so I tried it but obviously since it seemed logical to me there's room for confirmation bias so try it yourself - it definitely doesn't impress the bees though, they often become aggressive towards the area, presumably the menthol smell of toothpaste is not to their liking. Try it and see for yourself, can't discredit it if you've not tried it.

I'm afraid I'm still unconvinced, and I'd say your experience doesn't discount the possibility of it being a placebo. This stuff is "difficult" and it's well understood that people can play all sorts of mind games with themselves in such situations. Such weird games that I'm sure I've read in some situations placebos can actually be demonstrated to have a measurable effect even when the patient knows they're being given a placebo. Perhaps in Ben Goldacre's "Bad Science" book (showing slight signs of age now given that it was published about fifteen years ago, but still an excellent read by the way).

Initially I'd have to wonder what evidence there is that bicarb of soda in toothpaste can pass through the skin when rubbed. One of the purposes of skin is, after all, to stop stuff on the outside getting inside. Also, wasp stings are alkaline and we react to those, so as you have no control over how much bicarb might enter your system (assuming it actually can) why would you not then have a reaction to having too much? I'd also question why, given that the amount of venom injected is tiny and that blood is alkaline, the body couldn't neutralise the acid itself fairly quickly.

And finally (for the moment at least whilst bee venom may be acidic and wasp venom alkaline, as far as I'm aware they both cause pain because they contain amino acids (melittin, in the case of honey bees?) that trigger pain sensors. Amino acids are a very important part of our metabolism -- amongst other things they're used to build proteins, so if you're introducing something into your body that interferes with their action that's quite possibly not going to end well. However I'm not actually certain that all amino acids are in fact acidic and melittin may be one of the ones that isn't, but we're way above my pay grade at this point.

James

 

[Kirbygrip]

I had a sting on my arm that started to track red down my arm with gravity by the time I’d got in and removed my beesuit. I used the heat pen all down the tracking, pressing the heat button several times. Normally I swell up and itch for 3 days, but it all went away within hours with just a little local swelling.