Trap out

[Loxley]

Hi,

I am about to attempt a trap out for the first time. Having read up on it a bit I am fairly sure I understand the process but I have one question that i havent found an answer to yet. So, for anyone who has experience of this - when you add a frame of brood to a nuc do you use a frame of brood with adhering bees or without?

 

[JamezF]

For clarity, you're talking about using a frame of brood to lure the bees into the nuc from somewhere you don't want them to be? Or something else?

James

 

[Loxley]

For clarity, you're talking about using a frame of brood to lure the bees into the nuc from somewhere you don't want them to be? Or something else?

James

Yes exactly. They are in a stone wall, I have made a one way mesh cone thst will allow them to escape but not re-enter, the nuc with brood will be positioned just outside with the idea being that the bees are attracted into the nuc by the brood.

 

[JamezF]

In that case I'd assume you really want brood without bees. I'd have thought brood with bees would be likely to start fighting. I've never done it though

James

 

[Erichalfbee]

In that case I'd assume you really want brood without bees. I'd have thought brood with bees would be likely to start fighting. I've never done it though

James

The idea is that the bees that can’t get back in with the queen will make a new one while the colony gradually gets depleted and the few remaining g bees and queen perish.
It’s a long job.

 

[Loxley]

Yes though since this colony only arrived in the wall this week I'm hoping they won't be too established yet!

 

[Newbeeneil]

Yes though since this colony only arrived in the wall this week I'm hoping they won't be too established yet!

If they have drawn any comb I would think it’s unlikely you will tempt the queen out. As Dani says she will starve to death when her food source runs out which won’t be long since they haven’t been in there long.

 

[JamezF]

If they have drawn any comb I would think it’s unlikely you will tempt the queen out. As Dani says she will starve to death when her food source runs out which won’t be long since they haven’t been in there long.

The link posted a few days back to a trap for colonies in chimneys included a suggestion from the chap who was using it that once the colony has effectively moved into the box the queen will often follow them. I've also read elsewhere that once she is aware of brood pheromone that isn't hers she will go to investigate (by someone who uses that method for trapping).

Of course I have no idea how true either of these claims actually are. I'd probably be equally unsurprised if she starved to death as you suggest.

James

 

[Newbeeneil]

The link posted a few days back to a trap for colonies in chimneys included a suggestion from the chap who was using it that once the colony has effectively moved into the box the queen will often follow them. I've also read elsewhere that once she is aware of brood pheromone that isn't hers she will go to investigate (by someone who uses that method for trapping).

Of course I have no idea how true either of these claims actually are. I'd probably be equally unsurprised if she starved to death as you suggest.

James

I’m not that experienced in trap outs but all 4 I’ve done have not managed to get the queen out.
Maybe it’s the fact I put a frame of brood in the box once the bees are buzzing around the box to keep them calm.

 

[Loxley]

I’m not that experienced in trap outs but all 4 I’ve done have not managed to get the queen out.
Maybe it’s the fact I put a frame of brood in the box once the bees are buzzing around the box to keep them calm.

Neil, when you have done it was the brood without any bees when you added it?

As James said brood without bees is better as it prevents any chance of fighting but I guess my concern is how long it will take the trapped out bees to give up on trying to get back into their nest and then find and cover the brood.

Also how close are you managing to get the nuc to the entrance of the trap out? Does it need to be almost touching or is 6" above OK?

 

[ericbeaumont]

when you add a frame of brood to a nuc do you use a frame of brood with adhering bees or without?

Without.

Does it need to be almost touching or is 6" above OK?

6" above is fine. If you did need a few feet, link the box and entrance using a washing machine waste pipe, about 20mm bore. Buy a new one (you can get them anywhere) for £3 or 4 as it won't have a scent. The ribs allow the bees to grip.

Trap-outs take at least 6 weeks and are unreliable; if the cone entrance is small enough to deter bees from re-entering, it's going to be too small for the queen and drones to exit.

 

[JamezF]

I went to look at a colony locally this morning. They're at the very top right of this roof:

I suspect the colony is a fair size given how busy it was today and that the owner said there was far less activity than normal. I think it's going to be a mess to remove though, unless I can work out some way to set up a trap out. There are quite a few damaged tiles so any attempt to remove them is going to mean finding replacements and I couldn't see any membrane under the tiles so the comb may well be stuck to the underside of the tiles themselves.

I'm wondering about fitting another piece of timber over the existing rotten bargeboard, sealing it all round with something like expanding foam and cutting a new entrance in pretty much the same place but giving me an sound place to work from. Of course the bees then might just find another entrance somewhere amongst the tiles, so perhaps fixing a tarp down over the whole roof to cut out any daylight might be a good plan too.

James

 

[Loxley]

I went to look at a colony locally this morning. They're at the very top right of this roof:

I suspect the colony is a fair size given how busy it was today and that the owner said there was far less activity than normal. I think it's going to be a mess to remove though, unless I can work out some way to set up a trap out. There are quite a few damaged tiles so any attempt to remove them is going to mean finding replacements and I couldn't see any membrane under the tiles so the comb may well be stuck to the underside of the tiles themselves.

I'm wondering about fitting another piece of timber over the existing rotten bargeboard, sealing it all round with something like expanding foam and cutting a new entrance in pretty much the same place but giving me an sound place to work from. Of course the bees then might just find another entrance somewhere amongst the tiles, so perhaps fixing a tarp down over the whole roof to cut out any daylight might be a good plan too.

James

Thats looks like a tricky place to seal up. Perhaps just peel the lead up and take a few tiles away from that corner so you can get a better look, if their in that top corner you might not have to take many tiles off at all to reveal the nest. Have you got a bee vac? If not it could be a good excuse to make one!

 

[Loxley]

I managed to get the bait hive complete with frame of brood (no bees) pretty close to the entrance. I watched them for a while and had to plug up a couple of other holes with plugs of foam before I was satisfied they didn't have any other ways back in. This was yesterday just after I set it up. There were a lot of confused bees around but they were entering the nuc pretty quickly so fingers crossed and time will tell!

 

[JamezF]

Thats looks like a tricky place to seal up. Perhaps just peel the lead up and take a few tiles away from that corner so you can get a better look, if their in that top corner you might not have to take many tiles off at all to reveal the nest. Have you got a bee vac? If not it could be a good excuse to make one!

Possibly I could, but I don't want to get into a situation where the roof is no longer weatherproof because a tile crumbles apart as I lift it. Some are clearly not in good condition and there may well be more damage that I can't see. I agree that a bee vac might well be useful and I was going to make one last winter but other things became more urgent and I decided I'd only use it once in a Blue Moon, so I set the idea aside. Of course this year I could have benefitted from having one five or six times over

James

 

[ericbeaumont]

Of course the bees then might just find another entrance somewhere amongst the tiles

They will, and you'll be chasing your tail.

If the bees must go I suggest you expose the nest and cut them out, from the roof (risky without scaffolding) or inside the building.

Does the ceiling in the extension match the slope of the roof, or is there a flat ceiling & a void? Might be easier to cut out a section of ceiling and go in that way. IR gun will locate the nest.

 

[Nannysbees]

I went to look at a colony locally this morning. They're at the very top right of this roof:

I suspect the colony is a fair size given how busy it was today and that the owner said there was far less activity than normal. I think it's going to be a mess to remove though, unless I can work out some way to set up a trap out. There are quite a few damaged tiles so any attempt to remove them is going to mean finding replacements and I couldn't see any membrane under the tiles so the comb may well be stuck to the underside of the tiles themselves.

I'm wondering about fitting another piece of timber over the existing rotten bargeboard, sealing it all round with something like expanding foam and cutting a new entrance in pretty much the same place but giving me an sound place to work from. Of course the bees then might just find another entrance somewhere amongst the tiles, so perhaps fixing a tarp down over the whole roof to cut out any daylight might be a good plan too.

James

Gosh, that sounds like a job and a half!!!

 

[JamezF]

They will, and you'll be chasing your tail.

If the bees must go I suggest you expose the nest and cut them out, from the roof (risky without scaffolding) or inside the building.

Does the ceiling in the extension match the slope of the roof, or is there a flat ceiling & a void? Might be easier to cut out a section of ceiling and go in that way. IR gun will locate the nest.

One of the other thrills of this particular setup is that the wall beneath the roof is actually further out than the wall above it, so some of the roof is over the porch and some over a kitchen area indoors. It feels like you can't really tell what's going on without going beyond the point of no return

I did wonder if throwing a thick tarp over the entire roof, lapped over the edges of the tiles and fixed down to the bargeboard might work as a way of stopping the bees finding other potential exits/entrances.

To be fair, I am trying to find a relatively painless (including financially) way to help these people out because for all sorts of reasons I think they deserve it, and I'm willing to put myself out a bit to achieve that. So if I can avoid telling them they need to blow a few thousand on getting someone in who can both remove the bees and make good that would be really nice, but I am willing to accept that ultimately that may be the only viable way forward.

James