Swarm Ownership law.

[BeeJayBee]

... you may like to read the scan I put up..

Hellett v Jones was 1935, Kearry v Pattinson was 1939. Is there no more-recent caselaw, or is it that no cases since then have reached the courts?

 

[Poly Hive]

There may well be. The book I quoted from was produced in 1993 and English case law is forever case law...

How one would find out if there is anything more recent I am at a loss.

PH

 

[thorn]

Hellett v Jones was 1935, Kearry v Pattinson was 1939. Is there no more-recent caselaw, or is it that no cases since then have reached the courts?

It's doubtful, and there'll certainly be nothing reported since the early 1970s, when the Small Claims Track was set up. No-one with any degree of sense is going to risk thousands of pounds in legal fees over a very low value claim unless it's "a matter of principle" (oh I do love clients who fight on a matter of principle and give me a cheque for £5000 up front). When I get back on the office next week, and if I have time to do the research, I'll see what I can find out.
Polyhive, what was the book you were quoting? I doubt we'll have it in the office but if I can get hold of a cheap copy it may be a useful addition to my private library.
My initial view accords with the book, that once they've swarmed they're fair game. However, if you can say with a degree of certainty that they came from your hive others should respect this.

 

[Poly Hive]

Beekeeping and the Law-Swarms and Neighbours

By: David Frimstone and David Smith.

Written by a Circuit Judge and a Solicitor, not it seems a barrister, but the books intent is to serve as "it is intended to be a bee case book, that is to say a book of legal case law that could be used in court."

PH

 

[BBG]

I had one of my colonies swarm yesterday. It settled on a tree on the street. My dad went out and notified a few of the neighbours close by that it was ours and that we would collect in a few hours time once we got our kit together and when the road was less busy.

Instead someone called the council and this guy Eric, turned up to collect. He was told that they are mine and that I would be there soon, but the temptation overwhelmed him and he set about taking them. I arrived on scene later.

I think the law states that If one of your colonies swarms, that swarm is yours so long as you can pursue it, which may father did do even if he did not set about doing the actual collection at that point. I wasn't going to kick up a huge fuss, and I told him that he was dealing with a virgin queen heading a prime swarm so that he can deal with it accordingly, but I do wonder if he had the right to do that.

No. 1 Get there NOW not later and dump them in a cardboard box you beg or borrow, now they're yours! (if somebody told you there was £100 hanging in a tree would you wait until later to go and get it?)

No. 2 the 9/10s rule and he's got it

No. 3 Not a hope in hell

No. 4 Don't listen to legal beagles - you can do it for £100 through small claims if you're so minded - no sense in employing a money-pit for something you probably know more about than he does.

If you do go Small Claims let us know please assuming you want to take a day off work to go to Court, send a few letters, hope you don't get awarded costs and have to pay his money-pit (possible) then end up with what you suspiciously think may not be your swarm or argue that the other side is lying when they say the swarm died/absconded .........

AND English Case Law is always superseded by newer cases.

 

[Joseph]

Thank you polyhive for that scan. Note though, that I have not called Eric a thief, although he may have committed theft in the eyes of the law given that my father persued the bees to the tree. Leaving one QC is a rather risky approach, but I have adopted that method, and indeed last year I lost not a single swarm from my 12 colonies although getting colonies queen right is at times not easy.

My family kept an eye on the bees and we told Eric immediately upon his arrival that we thought it best to leave the bees right were they are until late when I knew a prayer meeting close by would be over. I can prove all of this. Instead a very large number of people were put at risk, and were made aware of the fact that I keep bees 50 yards away, which is something you try and avoid as an urban beek.

Eric, I believe, knew full well and accepted, that the bees were ours. I told him I was on double brood, and he remarked on his good fortune at my expense (something he apparently found funny when he calls me amusing), whilst I stood there empty-handed. He also said he would take care in hiving the bees given that I had told him to expect a virgin queen.

Eric told us he was on a mission to collect as many swarms as possible so that he could fill his new apiary in TM, which is how I identified him as Eric from TM on his theft post.. So much for him being there on an altruistic public service mission.

Eric takes Fox's point that most beekeepers would not have behaved in the way that he had behaved, and would have left or helped the local beek, but he also took our bees. It is true that a swarm of bees is not the crown jewels, but to a bee-keeper in late June which is when all this occurred, a swarm is as close as you can get to the crown jewels, and besides, more importantly, we felt a deep sense of injustice. So, I am now quite minded to pursue this via the small claims route BBG mentions. But I will try and get hold of the two cases mentioned first.
I have had some success following this route in the past over an Easement issue. The case in the book, though seems to suggest that a land owner can claim the bees on his land. In our case the bees were on the street, and were persued by my Dad who is arguably a co-owner, given that he gets to sell the crop, and that the hive is on his roof, although I do all the hard work.

Incidentally, my wife recalls telling him categorically that the bees were followed by my dad from hive to the tree, and so he would have known that he was on shaky territory legally as well as morally.

 

[BBG]

What I don't understand Eric halfway though the collection when Guy turned up why didn't u say ...ok m8 do u need hand getting your bees back...think that's what most of us would do.... I couldn't have walked away with a blokes bees left him standing there,,,

 

[Dusty Rhodes]

For goodness sake!

Can't you lot just drop it?
Or deal with it in private?
Or sort it out behind the bike shed?

I for one am bored senseless by this bickering.

D

 

[RoofTops]

And Joseph will lose if he takes it to court. You can only keep the swarm if you keep it in continuous sight. Once you walk away and leave them hanging from a lamp post they below to whover comes and collects them, as happened here. They are NOT your bees just because you tell a few bystanders.

I suppose if you could prove with DNA analysis the bees came from your hives you might have a case for challenging the established law as the precedence was set before the origin of the bees could be establishe like this but the costs would be high and there would still not be any certainty of the outcome. Honey bee queens are famously promiscuous so the DNA of colonies is pretty mixed and no doubt shares lines with colonies in the local area at the very least.

 

[fox403]

Jo like I said its not what I would have done,,,but going to court over it is a bit OTT in my eyes u let the bloke walk away with your bees u should said something at the time u didn't m8 I bet u don't let it happen again forget about it and enjoy nice day we have

 

[BBG]

For goodness sake!

Can't you lot just drop it?
Or deal with it in private?
Or sort it out behind the bike shed?

I for one am bored senseless by this bickering.

D

Well if trunky (you) didn't keep coming back looking for a bun, he wouldn't be bored senseless.

Also, it is good to see who is who and who will do what, particularly in their dealings with fellow practitioners.

 

[keith pierce]

I had a beekeeper that lived about 3 houses across the road from me. He too was never anygood at his swarm control and i always use to get about 5 swarms a year from him into the bait hives on the roof of my shed in the back garden.I got that good on timing their arrival by the activity on the outside,that i could swap the bait hive for another hive with fresh foundation, before the actual swarm decended.One evening when i arrived home from work, there was a knock on the front door, and there he was with a bee suit and a flimsy cardboard box.He said that he had see a swarm leave his back garden, cross the road, over the roof and decend into my back garden.He had no spare nuc, no spare hive. The swarm was now settled on commercial frames and all his bees were on national frames.Too cut a long story short,he left without bees.

 

[Joseph]

Keith, according to polyhive's book you are within you rights legally to claim bees that settle on your land. I would say I am pretty good with swarm control though. I very rarely lose swarms, and I didn't have any swarms issue last year because of control, can you say the same about your operation? I'm sure you have had "the one that got away" too to deal with here and there. Every beekeeper has that from time to time.

Are you getting your head around the genetics issue? It seems not!! I can provide you with references if you are interested. Here: HUNT, G. J. & PAGE-JR, R. E. 1995. Linkage map of the honey bee, Apis mellifera, based on RAPD markers. Genetics, 139, 1371-1382.

 

[mbc]

Keith, according to polyhive's book you are within you rights legally to claim bees that settle on your land. I would say I am pretty good with swarm control though. I very rarely lose swarms, and I didn't have any swarms issue last year because of control, can you say the same about your operation? I'm sure you have had "the one that got away" too to deal with here and there. Every beekeeper has that from time to time.

Are you getting your head around the genetics issue? It seems not!! I can provide you with references if you are interested. Here: HUNT, G. J. & PAGE-JR, R. E. 1995. Linkage map of the honey bee, Apis mellifera, based on RAPD markers. Genetics, 139, 1371-1382.

edit: just read the other thread and what Joseph had to say about colour and genetics. Apologies
My understanding of the genetics of colour is that its far from black and white,( ie. its not a simple case of yellow is dominant, black is recessive or visa/versa ).
Anybody who claims to know ( or have their "head around ")the genetics issue should publish, as they'd probably be up for a prize or somesuch.

As to swarm collecting, if I was collecting a swarm and someone turned up with a prior claim to it I'd think negotiating a compromise would be the right way to go ( eg. concede the swarm for an offer to pay expenses).
I think most people would struggle to negotiate amicably with a person who was two faced enough not to press their case at the time but was happy to winge later and out of sight.

 

[Joseph]

My case was pressed at the time, and it was clear we would not be making any progress. The guy was begged and implored repeatedly not to get involved, anyway, I have made my point I think.

My understanding of the genetics of colour is that its far from black and white,( ie. its not a simple case of yellow is dominant, black is recessive or visa/versa ).

My point exactly, although I think some or all the loci and alleles involved have been identified and are known, but colour phenotype in the honey bee is incredibly complex.

 

[keith pierce]

Ouch!!! that hurt.

Sure i lose swarms, but i dont go on whinging about it for nearly a year.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Sure i lose swarms, but i dont go on whinging about it for nearly a year.

Nearer two years.

 

[Joseph]

Sure i lose swarms, but i dont go on whinging about it for nearly a year.

Two years, two years. This happened in 2010!!

I wrote about this once the day after the event in 2010 because I was genuinely interested in the law, which raised an interesting discussion on the law, and the law is apparently quite unclear. Cue Eric in 2012, with his post on one of his hives stolen recently which I found too ironical to let pass.

 

[Joseph]

Nearer two years.

Ahh you beat me to it hivemaker.

 

[keith pierce]

Two years, two years. This happened in 2010!!

I wrote about this once the day after the event in 2010 because I was genuinely interested in the law, which raised an interesting discussion on the law, and the law is apparently quite unclear. Cue Eric in 2012, with his post on one of his hives stolen recently which I found too ironical to let pass.

Two years, two years!!! That makes it even worst, and you are still banging on about it.
Eric helped you out big time in your beekeeping, by helping you to become a much better beekeeper, because of the lessons learned you clain you lost no swarms last year.
I personally think you should ring him up and thank him istead of been so bitter,by snearing at his misfortunes.As you say we all have "the one that got away" too to deal with here and there. Every beekeeper has that from time to time.
Not every beekeeper has his hives stolen.It is every beekeepers nightmare with an outapairy, to turn up and find your bees and hives stolen.
You lost nothing but your pride and a swarm that most likey would of not been there when you got home.If your father had not been there you would of been no wiser.

Man up.