Swarm control using a polynuc and new apiary site

[Father Fox]

Last year I Got caught out in the swarm season without enough equipment. I did manage one successful artificial swarm into a spare hive at the same apiary. But this year I have some polynucs ready and a second apiary site several miles away that I want to get started at. I was wondering how best to manage this plan. Do I wait until I spot queen cells in existing colonies and then transfer these to nucs, and then transport to the new apiary site? I think that this will not put off the original colonies in their desire to swarm, and they will simply produce more QCs. ideally I want to manage the swarming at the original apiary, and produce honey, and set up some nucs at the new apiary site.

 

[REDWOOD]

If you are going to do it that way you need to split the hive before they go into swarm mode then let the build emergency QC's or re-queen.

 

[pargyle]

This is a really helpful pamphlet about managing queen cells:

http://www.wbka.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/There-Are-Queen-Cells-In-My-Hive-WBKA-WAG.pdf

But what you are really wanting to do is Demaree:

http://barnsleybeekeepers.org.uk/demaree.html

You are quite right - what you are proposing in your original post will not prevent them from making more queen cells and potentially swarming so you either need to take pre-emptive action with a Demaree at the point when they are ready to swarm or be ready to AS when they decide they ARE going to swarm.

You didn't say whether your other apiary was more than three miles away ... if it isn't then you need to think about the flying bees returning to their original location, if it's more than three miles away then it's not an issue. There are those people who claim that three miles is not necessary for a relocation and in some cases this is true but it's very dependent upon local factors (topgraphy, your bees homing instinct etc.) so there's always a risk.

If you are just looking to increase your colonies then you can take a split from a colony at any time once the season gets underway but don't mistake that for an anti-swarm measure.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Do I wait until I spot queen cells in existing colonies and then transfer these to nucs, and then transport to the new apiary site?

If you intend to conduct A/S using nucs, then it's slightly different to the Pagden method.
When you spot QC's you transfer the QUEEN on a frame of emerging brood and another frame or two with emerging brood and room to lay. DO NOT move that nuc to your new out apiary but leave it a little more than three feet away from the original hive - the thinking behind this is that all the flying bees (the instigators of swarming) will return to the hive with QC's in; if you move the nuc three miles away immediately, the queen may still swarm.
After a few days then you can move the queen in the nuc away to the other apiary.
As for the QC hive - do the usual (reduce to a good open QC etc) and being Q- they should carry on regardless (it does work, I've done it)

 

[BeeJayBee]

But this year I have some polynucs ready and a second apiary site several miles away that I want to get started at. I was wondering how best to manage this plan.

Dave Cushman's site has a description of "Swarm Control by Removing a Nucleus" http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/swarmconnuc.html

There's also "The Nucleus method of swarm control" on Moray beekeepers http://www.moraybeekeepers.co.uk/beekeeping/swarming/

 

[beeno]

If you intend to conduct A/S using nucs, then it's slightly different to the Pagden method.
When you spot QC's you transfer the QUEEN on a frame of emerging brood and another frame or two with emerging brood and room to lay. DO NOT move that nuc to your new out apiary but leave it a little more than three feet away from the original hive - the thinking behind this is that all the flying bees (the instigators of swarming) will return to the hive with QC's in; if you move the nuc three miles away immediately, the queen may still swarm.
After a few days then you can move the queen in the nuc away to the other apiary.
As for the QC hive - do the usual (reduce to a good open QC etc) and being Q- they should carry on regardless (it does work, I've done it)

Hi Jenkins,
That's the swarm control that makes most sense to me. Putting the queen and the foragers together in an A/S is tantamount to making preparations for the perfect storm IMHO. The parent hive I guess is not supposed to swarm in due course as the foragers will be happy with the stronger pheromones of their new queen. What is the success rate? Has this method of swarm control got a name attached to it? Thanks

 

[Pete D]

If you intend to conduct A/S using nucs, then it's slightly different to the Pagden method.
When you spot QC's you transfer the QUEEN on a frame of emerging brood and another frame or two with emerging brood and room to lay. DO NOT move that nuc to your new out apiary but leave it a little more than three feet away from the original hive - the thinking behind this is that all the flying bees (the instigators of swarming) will return to the hive with QC's in; if you move the nuc three miles away immediately, the queen may still swarm.
After a few days then you can move the queen in the nuc away to the other apiary.
As for the QC hive - do the usual (reduce to a good open QC etc) and being Q- they should carry on regardless (it does work, I've done it)

Saved me posting it. Ensure stores and pollen in the nuc as there will be few flyers, foundation into original hive.

 

[Pete D]

What is the success rate?
Has this method of swarm control got a name attached to it? Thanks

Not hijacking but for me success rate is high. But do the right things to make it high.
Reduce to 1 queen cell, there will be a lot of bees left behind and if you leave 2 they will swarm when the first one hatches.
Ensure that after reducing to 1 QC that you go back in to remove emergency cells within 3 days, if these are made with 3 /4 day old larvae they will be gone in 4 days.
I want no brood gap in the original hive and so to keep the numbers up I leave the nuc next to the hive and move frames from the nuc that have been laid up with eggs into the hive and swap recently hatched ones back. Do your day counting right so you are not opening the hive when the new queen is likely to be on her mating flight, I give myself 10 days to do this from making the split and usually do it twice (whilst checking for emergency cells) and move between 3-6 frames in total.
Then check in another 10 days that I have a new laying queen, the old queen is then dispatched and the bees combined or kept as a spare brood supplier in the apiary till the end of the season.

Probably got a name but to me its just swarm control using Nuc box, banking old queen just in case.

 

[beeno]

Thanks Pete.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I planned to try this. I thought it would keep the parent hive strong for a crop and allow me to keep the old queen in a nuc box in the same apiary to produce frames of brood or to recombine.
I can make a small extra stand for the nuc boxes leaving the main stands less congested.
I presume it might be necessary to top up the nurse bees in the nuc a couple of times?

 

[Father Fox]

Thankyou everybody for the terrific advice. As usual there's a few possible methods, but as a newish beek I feel more confident now. Thankyou

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I presume it might be necessary to top up the nurse bees in the nuc a couple of times?

Possibly - but they should be able to sustain themselves in that regard

 

[Pete D]

I planned to try this. I thought it would keep the parent hive strong for a crop and allow me to keep the old queen in a nuc box in the same apiary to produce frames of brood or to recombine.
I can make a small extra stand for the nuc boxes leaving the main stands less congested.
I presume it might be necessary to top up the nurse bees in the nuc a couple of times?

Only if you keep taking frames of open brood. I tend to only do it for the first 10 days then its left to build up or reunite. I keep the odd one going in each apiary just in case I need a frame of eggs, larvae or sealed brood.

Swarm control is the thing that can make or break your honey crop, you only get one chance per hive per year normally and it all happens over a 2 week period. Spend time getting it right first time, no need to rush in when you find QC's, you should of been expecting them as the signs are all indicating its on its way. Plan your method, have the gear ready, take your time and get it right.
Miss one thing, get it wrong and you wait 12 months to try it again.

Nucs work for me, I don't have 50 odd spare hives to do AS swarms and I want to maximise my crop.

 

[Fatbee]

I did this last year but really noticed the brood gap between removing old queen and getting new queen mated. I didn't do like Peter D and boost numbers from frames in the nuc which was a mistake. The nuc actually ended up the stronger of the two colonies by the end of the season.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I did this last year but really noticed the brood gap between removing old queen and getting new queen mated. I didn't do like Peter D and boost numbers from frames in the nuc which was a mistake. The nuc actually ended up the stronger of the two colonies by the end of the season.

I've found sometimes the brood gap can be beneficial - for honey production anyway. Missed a swarm on one of my colonies last season (been away training and as I walked up to the hives when I got back, the bees went the other way!) pretty large swarm and it was quite a while (but not too long) in the queen mating. By the time she had, I was putting the third super on.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I've found sometimes the brood gap can be beneficial - for honey production anyway. Missed a swarm on one of my colonies last season (been away training and as I walked up to the hives when I got back, the bees went the other way!) pretty large swarm and it was quite a while (but not too long) in the queen mating. By the time she had, I was putting the third super on.

No brood to rear so the only thing to do is collect nectar

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Super thread: thanks everyone. I am hoping to have a more "as planned" swarm season this year :-/ and this will help.

 

[Fatbee]

Hadn't thought of it like that - makes sense. Think my problem was that this colony was raising swarm cells in mid April so early and weren't that strong which cost me in the main flow. One of those classic 'they have space so why are they swarming!'. I suppose timing makes a difference
and not breed from the colonies with more swarms traits.

 

[Chris B]

Making nucs is a good plan, and there are different ways to go about it, but it's not going to save you equipment for very long, especially if your virgins mate quickly or you opt to buy queens. You'll just need to upgrade to full hives sooner or later, possibly within a month. Get new hives ready too.

In your position I would designate one of your colonies cell builder (use a Demaree type set up) and get a round of queen cells going in April, which you can then distribute to your nuc boxes, taking bees and brood from all your existing colonies to weaken them back to similar strength. Sorry that's a concise explanation - hopefully it makes sense.

 

[REDWOOD]

I plan on splitting a few hives this year {before swarm season} and buy in a few queens to get a good gene pool going.