Swarm control using a polynuc and new apiary site

[Finman]

We are singing from the same hymn sheet for once Finman
The beauty of the Pagden AS shouldn't be overlooked, and a thorough understanding of the principles behind it reveal a lot about the rhythms involved with bee colonies during a season. Once the basics are digested then a little tinkering ... sorry.

Yes, beautifully said.
Beauty of AS.... It is beauty if my swarms are not on trees tops in the height over 3 metre.

I actually live in capital city 100 miles away from my hives and I have not afford to beauty contests.

Mr. Demaree published first the principles of seprating queen and brood in swarming fever 1884.

I have never heard about Pagden method. Pagden published his book 1868, and he played with skeps.
http://www.bee-craft.com/wp-content...History-James-and-Emma-Pagden-Part-3-PDF1.pdf

Deamaree and Pagden methods seem to be quite identical.
http://countryrubes.com/images/Swarm_Prevention_By_Demaree_Method.pdf

http://barnsleybeekeepers.org.uk/pagden.html



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[Pete D]

Once the basics are digested then a little tinkering with the method to suit ones own operation is acceptable imho, but to fail to follow the biology, botch a compromise to suit your available equipment, and then to teach it to beginners who clamour to make it a "sticky" doesn't really hit the spot for me, sorry.

Ah well, lets dismiss it as nonsense then.
For me its about swarm control in my honey producing colonies, not making nucs as I make them from selected donor hives. It works for me by paying attention to the details.
As you say its a botch and a compromise and should not be taught to beginners. Thanks for putting me right.

Any beginners reading this please accept my apologies for spouting utter nonsense and disregard anything I have added to this thread.

 

[Finman]

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Lets repeat what happens when you make a nuc and put a queen into the nuc

- The queen will have a mini size hive, because most of bees return to the main hive. Practically the queen stops laying .

- Main hive continues its swarming preparations like nothing has happened.

- You pick off queen cells except one. Bees build new queen cells.
- Main hive swarms when first virgin emerges.

- You may pick 2 next weeks those new queen cells but often they succeed to hidden those emercengy cells between brood cells. All the time the hive has its swarming fever and does not forage much.

 

[mbc]

Pete, no offence meant, but as JBM said, it's a common method round here, which makes me despair.
Try a trial, side by side hives, with enough numbers to make it a valid trial, I think you'll be astounded at the difference come harvest time.
Nature wants a swarm queen to exhaust herself building a new nest and quite often she will naturally be superseded later on, a scenario mimicked by the classic AS when mother and daughter are later united, whereas by taking the queen in a nuc without the flyers you are essentially confounding the bees desire to swarm, the old queen doesn't really get her last hurrah! and momentum is lost for the season. Meanwhile, at the original site, the hive is packed with flyers who will be past their best for brood rearing long before there's new brood to raise, lots of foundation they'll start to build because they were expecting to swarm but (in my experience) will fizzle out on the endeavour before it's done as they know there's no need until the nest starts growing, and any addition of brood from the nuc is just added work for the beekeeper to keep the colony ticking over at a mediocre holding state waiting for the new queen to get going when they should be the powerhouse of your apiary bringing in your honey.
I know it's not as black and white as this in reality, but in a large apiary over a number of seasons, it makes no sense to be denying your honey producing colonies a laying queen for any length of time in the middle of the season (unless you're short of supers and don't actually want the inconvenience of loads of sticky honey to process). When you consider the relative ages of bees of the two parts of the split in either scheme, it's glaringly obvious the bees are better put to use in the classic AS.
All of the above comes with the usual caveat that all beekeeping is local, and the bees may behave differently in your locality, but I doubt they'd behave that differently.

 

[Pete D]

MBC, none taken, apologies if it came across that way.

I was shown this by a local commercial beekeeper in my second year, tried it and it seemed to work. Refined it a bit over the last couple of years and had good results. Several 100kg plus hives last season.

This year is a year of consolidation for me after rapid growth and steep learning curve. More time this year as given day job up and now part time beek and part time whatever comes my way.
I am looking at maximising output and income from what I have and finding the most efficient way of working before building up anymore.

My early trials at AS were no more successful than my nuc method and I was waiting an age for new queen to lay due to poor weather conditions.

Will try full AS at one apiary this year as my spare equipment wont be used for building up numbers.

 

[mbc]

To be honest I very rarely do a full on AS myself as I have an endless need f bees and brood for queen rearing and nuc building during the swarming season, it's the principal of keeping the foraging bees in big productive (q+) units that I find helps.

 

[beeno]

To be honest I very rarely do a full on AS myself ... it's the principal of keeping the foraging bees in big productive (q+) units that I find helps.

Hi mbc,
So, you are a strong proponent of full on AS, but you rarely use it yourself. We have all read the principle of keeping the foraging bees with the old queen to maximise honey crop, but she still swarms in 30% of the cases! Show me the man or woman, who has more than 15+ colonies that uses full on Pagden AS or Demaree for that matter (apart from the two obvious ones), who thinks it works 85-90% of the time.

 

[Father Fox]

After reading the responses to this thread, I must admit that as a fairly new beekeeper, it has been a bit confusing with the differing advice. I am proposing to use the advice from Dave Cushmans website:

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/swarmconnuc.html

Any big concerns on this?

 

[Erichalfbee]

That's just what we have been discussing.



In which case you might want to look here?
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=32334


Sorry.....if I had a hat......................

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

After reading the responses to this thread, I must admit that as a fairly new beekeeper, it has been a bit confusing with the differing advice. I am proposing to use the advice from Dave Cushmans website:

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/swarmconnuc.html

Any big concerns on this?

You are just as eager to make increase as to avoid swarming, you know you have to try for a happy medium and are not (I think) trying this year at least to squeeze every possible drop of honey from your bees, so I would say 'carry on'
Last year I used a variety of methods at various apiaries. Demarree (100% success) pagden (50%) - but then according to the authority on bees Pagden was a lunatic skeppist and Demarree is the same method anyway and one nuc maneuvre (as we were trying to show as many methods as possible at the training apiary) that was a mixed success - from an overwintered nuc had a small harvest, old (red) queen still going well on nine seams during OA last week but the new queen probably got lost during the mating flight but then, last year was a funny season overall.

But I digress - the thing to realise is that there are loads of 'swarm prevention' techniques Pagden and Demarree being the conventional choices, but it's always worth keeping the other methods in your toolbox (sh!t I sound like one of these touchy feely departmental trainers now - know I shouldn't have gone on that course last year - even though at the end they said they didn't want me because I was too in touch with the real world!!) as you'll never know, one day it may be the only, or best method at your disposal

 

[BeeJayBee]

I am proposing to use the advice from Dave Cushmans website:

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/swarmconnuc.html

Any big concerns on this?

None at all.

You have a spare nuc which you can use for swarm control so try it, and you'll find out if it works for you and your bees.

 

[Finman]

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Succes rate of Demaree swarm control? It depends...

At least my beek friends like to try their own ideas and do not follow the advices (make it easier) . Then they say that system does not work.

There are too bee strains which are more difficult to handle than others. Some may start to swarm soon after Demaree. Italian bees is quite easy to handle.

In my swarm control cut wing is essential part with demaree.

To make AS to foundations is very sure, but on drawn combs colony continues sometimes its swarming.

System works well if you fo what you should to do. Continuos rain weathers is one problem in shecking.
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[Finman]

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Succes of Demaree swarm control? It depends...

At least my beek friends like to try their own ideas and do not follow the advices (make it easier) . Then they say that system does not work. Many like to squeeze swarm cells like before.

There are too bee strains which are more difficult to handle than others. Some may start to swarm soon after Demaree. Italian bees is quite easy to handle.

In my swarm control cut wing is essential part with demaree.

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[beeno]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for answering my question with sincerity - you know who you are. The Demaree method will be part of my exam preparations as I find it most interesting and convenient. Up date on my double supercedure attempt using this method. Neither 'colony' got going and with winter preps. pending I had had enough and united them with the two queens one laying and the other one perhaps thinking about it. In October this colony was still constructing QC's, still laying, and still flying drones. This colony is now flying with purpose and is the busiest in the apiary bringing in yellow pollen today. Drones still fly on a warm and sunny day. With few exceptions varroa drop still 20 a day despite thymol in the autumn and OA just before Xmas!

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Hi Guys,
Thanks for answering my question with sincerity - you know who you are. The Demaree method will be part of my exam preparations as I find it most interesting and convenient. Up date on my double supercedure attempt using this method. Neither 'colony' got going and with winter preps. pending I had had enough and united them with the two queens one laying and the other one perhaps thinking about it. In October this colony was still constructing QC's, still laying, and still flying drones. This colony is now flying with purpose and is the busiest in the apiary bringing in yellow pollen today. Drones still fly on a warm and sunny day. With few exceptions varroa drop still 20 a day despite thymol in the autumn and OA just before Xmas!

Wow, Beeno, a natural drop of 20 mites a day is pretty bad. Fig 54 of Defra's Managing Varroa shows 20 mites per day at the top of its possible mite drops - from about 3 to 20 mites per day at this time of year, you're in the realm of "Severe risk: effective controls required". Anything over 10 per day at any time of the year needs attention/treatment. Maybe it's time for more Oxalic?

I messed up my very first AS last year so I'm preparing the kit for a Demaree procedure with a Snelgrove board for this year and hoping for more success than last year.

CVB

 

[Finman]

I messed up my very first AS last year so I'm preparing the kit for a Demaree procedure with a Snelgrove board for this year and hoping for more success than last year.

CVB

Snelgrove board does not make it better.
It brings more mesh to inspections.

What happened in your procedure?

 

[beeno]

Wow, Beeno, a natural drop of 20 mites a day is pretty bad. Fig 54 of Defra's Managing Varroa shows 20 mites per day at the top of its possible mite drops - from about 3 to 20 mites per day at this time of year, you're in the realm of "Severe risk: effective controls required". Anything over 10 per day at any time of the year needs attention/treatment. Maybe it's time for more Oxalic?

I messed up my very first AS last year so I'm preparing the kit for a Demaree procedure with a Snelgrove board for this year and hoping for more success than last year.

CVB

24-hour drop yesterday was five, but they are brooding me thinks judging from the pollen going in. I guess it will be Maqs in due course with brood removed, but great risk of queen either dying or being superceded.

 

[Finman]

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If situation is bad, you may take brood off and then kill mites.

 

[Swarm]

Snelgrove board does not make it better.
It brings more mesh to inspections.

That really depends, some find them quite useful and the top chamber will need an entrance anyway.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Snelgrove board does not make it better.
It brings more mesh to inspections.

What happened in your procedure?

After keeping bees for two years and only 2kg of honey to show for my efforts - not that honey was my main motivation but I have had some grief from SHMBO about the lack of the sweet stuff) - I thought, from what I had read that a Demaree procedure might improve the chances of a crop and take up less room in the apiary, being a sort of vertical AS, my main concern being whether it might end up too high - I'm on 14x12 so two brood boxes and a couple of supers ends up quite high!

It brings more mesh to inspections. - please explain what you mean by this.

As to what happened to my AS last year, where to start? I suspect that I missed some queen cell in both the AS and mother colony. Everybody I spoke to locally had had problems with swarming last year due to the warm and extended season and in hindsight, I think I must have lost at least three swarms - my wife saw one disappearing and thought they were noisy flying ants! Doh! Also, with hindsight, I probably should have been inspecting more often than every seven days - I was seduced by the idea of leaving them to it (Let the bees decide) but the bees decided to swarm. I did not have my new queen marked (still isn't) so it was quite tricky keeping track of what was happening only by seeing eggs and larvae - I'll mark them ASAP when the season starts. At one stage I had a problem of laying-workers in a colony and tried them with a couple of frames of brood but, in the end, I lost that colony having to tip them out on the ground 150 metres away.

Looking forward to the new season with a mixture of excitement and trpidation after last year.

CVB