Swarm control using a polynuc and new apiary site

[Erichalfbee]

Hi Pete D,
putting the swarm queen with the foragers does not seem to make much sense to me.

It does,really.
They have an awful lot of work to do drawing out most of the box and they have little brood.
It's always worked for me (bar one occasion) but my hive stands are very congested .....so much so that I'm giving some bees away to beginners this Spring..... I thought a couple of nucs might just ease the strain.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

putting the swarm queen with the foragers does not seem to make much sense to me

That's the point - you don't you put the queen in a nuc with brood, nurse bees etc, move it a few feet from the main hive with QC, supers and foragers thus all the flying bees go home leaving queenie with nothing but nurse bees and brood (that's why it is important to ensure they have food stores) flying bees are the swarm instigators so that's the queeen left in peace, flying bees return to Q- hive thus they cool down for a while.
The problems only start when you immediately move the nuc to an apiary three miles away and the swarm instigators stay with the nuc.
Wally Shaw has done quite a bit of study into this and seems happy with it.

 

[Swarm]

I use this method and/or Demarree, congested stands as per Erichalfbee being one of the reasons and it's usually successful. Swarm season 2014 came right in the middle of the build up to our daughters wedding and this method was a lot quicker and simpler, however that was one strange season and I did have mixed results. Khaleesi and her daughter built up two productive colonies of lovely bees. Another one, the old queen went on to swarm later and a third one saw both swarm later.

 

[beeno]

That's the point - you don't you put the queen in a nuc with brood, nurse bees etc, move it a few feet from the main hive with QC, supers and foragers thus all the flying bees go home leaving queenie with nothing but nurse bees and brood (that's why it is important to ensure they have food stores) flying bees are the swarm instigators so that's the queeen left in peace, flying bees return to Q- hive thus they cool down for a while.
The problems only start when you immediately move the nuc to an apiary three miles away and the swarm instigators stay with the nuc.
Wally Shaw has done quite a bit of study into this and seems happy with it.

Hi Jenkins,
Sorry, if I was unclear as we are talking about a Pagden AS vs moving queen to a nuc. Talking about the nuc scenario and the parent hive with the QC, the one you call Q-, will the foragers want to swarm once the newly mated queen starts laying or will they be happy with the new queen's stronger pheromones and cool off for the season? What's the success rate on this method? I have read that the Pagden queens swarm at least 30% of the time anyhow.

 

[beeno]

I use this method and/or Demarree, congested stands as per Erichalfbee being one of the reasons and it's usually successful. Swarm season 2014 came right in the middle of the build up to our daughters wedding and this method was a lot quicker and simpler, however that was one strange season and I did have mixed results. Khaleesi and her daughter built up two productive colonies of lovely bees. Another one, the old queen went on to swarm later and a third one saw both swarm later.

Hi Swarm,
That does not say much for the method other than pot luck? Any ideas why it turned out different? Time of the year, flow, colony size etc etc.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi Jenkins,
Sorry, if I was unclear as we are talking about a Pagden AS vs moving queen to a nuc. Talking about the nuc scenario and the parent hive with the QC, the one you call Q-, will the foragers want to swarm once the newly mated queen starts laying or will they be happy with the new queen's stronger pheromones and cool off for the season? What's the success rate on this method? I have read that the Pagden queens swarm at least 30% of the time anyhow.

They will have had a brood break and will be depleted in numbers so hopefully not.

Yes she might if you have cut it so fine that she was on her way in a matter of hours, anyway

 

[Finman]

What's the success rate on this method? I.

There is no such swarming control or AS method where you take a laying queen into nuc and hope that the parent colony does not swarm. If the colony has allready swarm cells and swarming fever, it stops foraging and start to wait moment when it gets a new virgin.

That same happens in hives which have clipped queen. The queen will vanish into lawn in first attempt and it is 100% sure the swarm leaves when the first virgin emerges. And that swarm is big, because it has prime swarm bees and after swarm bees.


What is build up???? It is to rear a colony ready to harvest summer's honey yield. Biggest proplem is bees' natural swarming hive and half from colony escapes.

It is better to start from swarming control basics than try to invent, how you can use your nuc boxes in swarm control. There is no such method.


If you make nucs to avoid swarming in early summer, it is better that you have then new mated queens. Otherwise splitting hives before main yield makes no sense.

But they are your bees and you may do what ever what a beginner gets into his head.

Swarm control is very well known issue, and there are very good methods to manage swarming. It is better to learn real methods and not to try something else. Too expencive trial.

https://agdev.anr.udel.edu/maarec/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Swarm_Prev_Control_PM.pdf

.

 

[Swarm]

Hi Swarm,
That does not say much for the method other than pot luck? Any ideas why it turned out different? Time of the year, flow, colony size etc etc.

I did say that I use this method and usually it's successful. 2014 was a very strange season and I simply mentioned the mixed results before people get carried away.

This method was explained very simply in a video showing beekeeping in the forties (I believe) there was a link here on the forum.

 

[Finman]

They will have had a brood break and will be depleted in numbers so hopefully not.

]

It is a huge difference, is the brood break in May, in July or in August.

 

[Erichalfbee]

There is no such swarming control or AS method where you take a laying queen into nuc and hope that the parent colony does not swarm.
https://agdev.anr.udel.edu/maarec/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Swarm_Prev_Control_PM.pdf

.

There appears to be just such a swarming control
Quoting a paragraph from your link

• Removal of the Queen - Dequeening a colony rearing queen cells is effective swarm control but often takes considerable time searching for the queen. After queen removal, the colony is left for 7 to 9 days and then the queen is placed in a cage and put back into the colony after all queen cells are again destroyed. Variations of this technique include the destroying of the original queen and introducing a newly purchased or reared queen or adding a queen cell 7 to 9 days later or, finally, cutting out all queen cells except one which is allowed to emerge, mate and head the colony. Removal of the queen for swarm control always produces a break in brood rearing. This can affect the honey surplus stored from summer nectar sources, but late spring flows such as tulip poplar will not suffer from lack of bees.

 

[Finman]

There appears to be just such a swarming control
Quoting a paragraph from your link

• Removal of the Queen - Dequeening a colony rearing queen cells is effective swarm control but often takes considerable time searching for the queen. After queen removal, the colony is left for 7 to 9 days and then the queen is placed in a cage and put back into the colony after all queen cells are again destroyed. Variations of this technique include the destroying of the original queen and introducing a newly purchased or reared queen or adding a queen cell 7 to 9 days later or, finally, cutting out all queen cells except one which is allowed to emerge, mate and head the colony. Removal of the queen for swarm control always produces a break in brood rearing. This can affect the honey surplus stored from summer nectar sources, but late spring flows such as tulip poplar will not suffer from lack of bees.

It is difficult to find all queen cells from the hive, and when you try to destroy them, they rear new queen cells.
During next 6 days the colony is able to rear new queens. (3 days egg + 3 days larva). And the colony has still the swarming fever.

What ever , but is a miserable method. But it all depends, at what time of summer you do it.

Compared to normal AS, where you put them fly onto foundations, you get ridd of swarming fever in 3 days. Then the swarm starts again to forage.

When AS starts to draw foundations, it tells that operation is succeeded.

But Erichalfbee, you just do it. Learn it via hard way.

.

 

[Finman]

dople

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[mbc]

What ever , but is a miserable method.

What you have to remember Finman, is that some "catch and release" beekeepers over here would have their buckets upside down if it was raining honey.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

There is no such swarming control or AS method

If you say so Finsky - i'll leave you carry on in your own little world to believe what you will.

 

[mbc]

If you say so Finsky - i'll leave you carry on in your own little world to believe what you will.

I think he's getting at the way AS has been described in this thread defeats the object( artificial swarm=make the bees think they've swarmed by having the old queen and swarming bees re-establish a nest), if so, I concur with him.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Well let's call it a method of swarm control/avoidance then.

 

[mbc]

Ok, if you like you call it that, personally I'll call it a bumbling waste of bee resources at a pivotal time for maximising honey crops, but each to their own

 

[Finman]

I think he's getting at the way AS has been described in this thread defeats the object( artificial swarm=make the bees think they've swarmed by having the old queen and swarming bees re-establish a nest), if so, I concur with him.

That fooling is the essential point, and so the queen can continue its maximum laying By the help of its foragers and nurser bees. It takes about 3 days that the queen does not lay, and it even becomes slimmer. But then in one week it lays one langstroth box full.

When we have swarming time, bees should rear maximum abount of workers for main yield., and do not spend time in a nuc.

My little worlds has no space for experiments what I allready know that they are miserable.

But thanks Jenkins that you give to me your blessing.

Mr. Little World wants over 100 kg honey from a hive. That is my goal.

 

[Finman]

Ok, if you like you call it that, personally I'll call it a bumbling waste of bee resources at a pivotal time for maximising honey crops, but each to their own

Good honey crops come from good pastures. But if the hive is in swarming fever, it does not forage much even in best pastures. And good pastures need foraging power and equally powers which handle the daily nectar crop.

I can do easily new nucs too without sacrificing honey yield.

.

 

[mbc]

That fooling is the essential point, and so the queen can continue its maximum laying By the help of its foragers and nurser bees. It takes about 3 days that the queen does not lay, and it even becomes slimmer. But then in one week it lays one langstroth box full.

When we have swarming time, bees should rear maximum abount of workers for main yield., and do not spend time in a nuc.

My little worlds has no space for experiments what I allready know that they are miserable.

But thanks Jenkins that you give to me your blessing.

Mr. Little World wants over 100 kg honey from a hive. That is my goal.

We are singing from the same hymn sheet for once Finman
The beauty of the Pagden AS shouldn't be overlooked, and a thorough understanding of the principles behind it reveal a lot about the rhythms involved with bee colonies during a season.
Once the basics are digested then a little tinkering with the method to suit ones own operation is acceptable imho, but to fail to follow the biology, botch a compromise to suit your available equipment, and then to teach it to beginners who clamour to make it a "sticky" doesn't really hit the spot for me, sorry.