"Survivor bees" found in Blenheim Forest

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Can we all see how that fits the Darwinian and breeder conditions? Isolation, not from varroa, but from bee genes - from ecotypes lacking the specific programming for managing varroa? The population has, free from beekeepers' bees, simply raised those characters through natural selection.
you were too lazy too read the thread from the start but if you had you would have seen that the isolation part of Philipe's story is nonsense as there are lots of apiaries registered close to Blenheim and he himself kept bees in Blenheim recently but his colonies failed and he tried to crowdfund their replacements

but pick the bits of the story you like and go with them...and call it science
 
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People who make ad hom attacks deserve them back.
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Stop playing the victim...read the torrent of your own (increasingly disagreeable) posts erecting straw men opponents who don't actually exist.

You are attributing all these negative intentions against all who disagree with you...yet they are not true...just help you to portray yourself as the victim of attacks.

Telling you they believe this 'discovery' is a fantasy is NOT an ad hominem attack.

I could tell you what the opinion of the commercial beekeeper that 'another' has been trying to oust from Blenheim since way before this 'story' broke thinks of it...but that WOULD include ad hominem attacks.

He had/has bees all round the forest...strangely looking rather like the ones in the pictures. He is a good man and does not think this story has anything to it at all.

I WAS going to respond to your earlier post of points listed by letter...every one of which is either nonsense or distortion...but deleted it as it was going to set fire to things...kind of wish I had not....but I have the real world to live in and as the season marches towards me apace there is no time for wasting on pointless argumants......
 
I expect he was quickly pissed by the quality of responses here. Its a pretty ugly place to try to have a conversation outside the mindset held by a small minority of barking dogs.

If we could reach him in a more protected manner we might learn more. He might allow us to question him about things, and he can stop when the NDA kicks in.

The impression I have from what was published in the media and on websites of other interested parties was that claims were being made about these bees on the basis of (at best) weak evidence or even no evidence at all, with no attempt being made to eliminate other possible explanations. What has been published also appears at times to contradict what is generally understood about bee behaviour (by people who spend years researching these things, not just the usual suspects here). And in fact the photographic evidence I've seen so far doesn't really seem to back up the claims made either.

In addition there does appear to have been inconsistency over time in terms of the claims made, where the situation appears to be described differently depending on what appears to be the desired outcome or where information is withheld for not entirely plausible reasons.

It's also odd, though certainly may be completely unrelated, that Filipe Salbany's "presence" on the internet appears to have undergone significant editing relatively recently, in a manner that might suggest to some that it has been done to avoid detracting from his current claims.

Under such circumstances I'm really not surprised that many (myself included, to be fair) are inclined towards extreme scepticism and wonder if it's all more likely to be a scam.

As far as I can see he doesn't have a background in science research and may perhaps just not be very good at managing how his ideas are presented to the world. On the other hand, if it quacks like a scam, and looks like a scam, lots of people are probably going to feel quite justified in assuming it's a scam and treat it accordingly.

As I've already posted, I agree that it would be fascinating if there are indeed "wild" populations of bees that survive as colonies over long periods of time and that beekeepers generally may be able to benefit from a better understanding of them. On the basis of the evidence I have seen so far however, I'm not even remotely convinced.

James
 
To the beginning of the whole story is funtastic. " Isolated forest of Blenheim Palace. In the middle of Nowhere England.
 
Typical term in beekeeping

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Ah, with you. Her specialism is bee breeding for inbuilt health - she's not a conservationist.

I'm with you. My daughter, just finishing an Msc in conservation and ecology is very big on rewilding.... among other things. She belongs to a family of keen conservationists.
 
A condescending superior tone is not helpful. All it does is aggravate the situation. Something, as a psychologist, I’m sure you are aware of.
If there are no objections it might be timely to close this thread then you can start a blog where you can discuss this with like minded beekeepers without having continually to teach others a lesson.
Does that sound fair?
Are you speaking to me? I'm not a psychologist...?

I'm not planning to start a blog. There is no reason why beekeepers interested in population dynamics and bee breeding can't have threads. Perhaps its the objectors who should have blogs, if they can't leave alone threads containing ideas they clearly can't follow.

I call it like it is Dani. I'm not a diplomat, and if people can't be civil they must expect a bit of truth. You can always chuck me out again.
 
Ah, with you. Her specialism is bee breeding for inbuilt health - she's not a conservationist.

I'm with you. My daughter, just finishing an Msc in conservation and ecology is very big on rewilding.... among other things. She belongs to a family of keen conservationists.

When I started my biolgy studies in 1967, ecology was very new idea in the University. Identyfying species was the most important thing. I met ecology term there first time.
 
Ok, define 'isolated' for our purposes.

Me, to invent a wheel!
The term was in the Blenheim article. You can look " isolated" from an English dictionary.
I do not know what an ordinary Englishman means by that. Does he/she understand it.
 
I call it like it is Dani. I'm not a diplomat, and if people can't be civil they must expect a bit of truth. You can always chuck me out again.
No need
This thread is going round in circles and is now just a battleground. Everything useful and useless has been said ad nauseam
 
His post has caused me once again to wonder if the apiary density figure in BeeBase is actually genuinely based on a 10km radius. Doing that calculation is computationally expensive and gets ugly in terms of performance over a large data set. I wonder if they perhaps use a 20km square centred on the apiary in question or something similar, which would be a much simpler calculation whilst providing a slightly less accurate result.

James
 
Very good piece….. although I am surprised he didn’t mention Blenheim’s humid valleys and remote areas in Kent…. He must be slipping😉
 
Very good piece….. although I am surprised he didn’t mention Blenheim’s humid valleys and remote areas in Kent…. He must be slipping😉

Don't you think that's the very subject for which he was giving "evidence" to debunk?
 
I think he said he might write more specifically about Blenheim in the future. For the moment I think he's mostly just showing how we might reason about the origin of wild/feral bees generally, but relating it to known examples (and not just Blenheim).

I suspect that if he does write about Blenheim then it might be to suggest that there are many reasons to believe they're recently-arrived swarms of mongrels and few to believe otherwise, but that the only way to know for sure is regular monitoring and (regular) DNA testing. Of course they've allegedly already done one round of DNA tests but "aren't allowed" to tell us the results. The cynic in me suggests that's because they didn't get the results they were after.

James
 
Of course they've allegedly already done one round of DNA tests but "aren't allowed" to tell us the results. The cynic in me suggests that's because they didn't get the results they were after.
Yes after the initial fanfare it's all gone quiet.
These threads all come down to one side saying "There are wild bees, prove there aren't" and the other side "prove there are" and so it goes round in circles interspersed with articles illustrating each side.
 
There are so many flaws in this chap's ruminating that its hard to know where to start. Its very much a case of theorising in pursuit of a desired outcome, rather than having knowledge of the facts - or even knowlege of the appropriate science. I'll try to demonstrate with an extract or two:

============

Are these wild bees self-sustaining, unique and ancient?​

If a colony or two of bees (or even a hundred) are found in the woods I’d suggest the following tests need to be applied to convincingly demonstrate they are a unique and self-sustaining population.

  • how isolated are they really? Are there managed colonies within 5-10 km that could act as a source of swarms? Geographic isolation may be due to factors other than distance, for example an island population, or an isolated valley surrounded with mountains.
  • is the population truly self-sustaining? Do colonies regularly survive for sufficient time to reproduce? To be self-sustaining, annual colony losses must be less than or equal to new colonies established from the same feral bees.
  • are the bees genetically distinct from managed colonies within 10 km or so? If they are a well-established population you would expect this.
If the population is truly isolated, reproduces sufficiently to replace annual losses and is genetically distinct, then it may well be self-sustaining."

=============
Point 1 is theorising that the writer can know how isolated bees need to be in order to begin and sustain the process of gaining and attaining resistance. It presupposes a woodland area devoid of such bees as have begun the process. It doesn't appear to take into acount the number of such colonies, or the balance or power between them and any nearby hives.

Point 2 I'll accept

Point 3 ignores completely the scientific evidence that all strains of bees, and mixtures and mongrels, can become resistant. The genetics of any such bees in such woods will almost certainly have originated in the agricultural bees nearby, which will be both identifiable strains and mixes and mongrels. The hives around the wood are therefire genetically distinct from each other. Does he suggest we examine the DNA profile of all such surrounding hives in order to eliminate each and every one from the free-living colonies in the woods? Again, what would we need to find in the DNA of the woodland colonies in order to be sure that they didn't originate in swarms from outside (which they almosts certainly did, at some point in the past). Do the wild bees need to be of an evolved and uniform strain before we accept that they are not 1 or 2 year-old escapees? Despite the obvious fact of ongoing drone input from outside?

The writer seems to be all but unaware of the mechanics of population dynamics, of the complexity of his own scenario, and seems so attached to the notion that any bees inside must be recent escapees, that he cannot entertain the idea that escaped swarms _over the past 30 years_ might have slowly located resitant traits. He doesn't even seem to appreciate that a _population_ of colonies is a pre-requisite of such adaptation.

===========

A glimmer of hope (?) … the Arnot Forest bees​

The Arnot Forest is not dissimilar in size to Blenheim estate (17 km2 vs. 24 km2).

However, it is surrounded by lots more old growth forest (100+ years) and so is effectively more isolated. There are some managed colonies in the surrounding forests, but – when tested – they were genetically distinct from the Arnot Forest bees (Seeley et al., 2015). Finally, the colony survival characteristics (~1.5 years) and annual swarming of the Arnot Forest bees indicates that the population is self-sustaining. These Arnot Forest bees have adapted to live with Varroa through behavioural changes – frequent swarming, small colonies etc.

Clearly, self-sustaining populations of feral colonies can exist 11, but this is not the same as claiming that all feral populations are self-sustaining, unique or ancient.

Finally, it’s worth noting that the mechanisms that self-sustaining populations of bees have evolved to become Varroa tolerant (they are unlikely to be resistance) – small, swarmy, colonies – may make them unsuited for either beekeeping or pollination."


===============
Back to the Arnot forest (despite many studies closer to home - but at least its not the initial study)

Just look at that closing assertion. Despite all that is known of the suite of in-colony mechanisms that bees can draw on, the writer makes the totally unsupported and scientifically multiply disproven assertion wild bees survive by being small or swarmy, and the similarly unsupported assertion that they 'may be' unsuited to pollination. (And tries to give greater credence to his understanding by cramming in the ill-defined distinction between tolerance and resistance)

Its all so ridiculous it makes me cross. This is a drive to dismiss the possiblity of wild bees, dressed up as scientific and authorititive, that flies in the face of the actual science. By somebody who has clearly never knowingly seen a bee from a flourishing untreated wild/feral colony, let alone kept one.

Don't be fooled. There are good questions about the relationships between treated and untreated wild/feral bees. This fellow doesn't know how to ask them.

A glimmer of hope my foot! This is casting a dark blanket over the already bright state of affairs, wild bees alive and flourishing all over the UK, including in beekeepers hives.
 
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Yes after the initial fanfare it's all gone quiet.
These threads all come down to one side saying "There are wild bees, prove there aren't" and the other side "prove there are" and so it goes round in circles interspersed with articles illustrating each side.
Er, no: substantiated by proper peer-reviewed scientific studies by real subject-appropriate scientists on one side and not substantiated by armchair theorists on the other.
 
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I think he said he might write more specifically about Blenheim in the future. For the moment I think he's mostly just showing how we might reason about the origin of wild/feral bees generally, but relating it to known examples (and not just Blenheim).

I suspect that if he does write about Blenheim then it might be to suggest that there are many reasons to believe they're recently-arrived swarms of mongrels and few to believe otherwise, but that the only way to know for sure is regular monitoring and (regular) DNA testing. Of course they've allegedly already done one round of DNA tests but "aren't allowed" to tell us the results. The cynic in me suggests that's because they didn't get the results they were after.

James
Its as likely that they want to wait for proper studies to be done and published, including studies of what any particular DNA result might actually mean.
 

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