Selling honey from the hives in the UK

[Mint Bee]

current lot are planning to remove all reference to EU legislation ASAP, so god know what micky mouse food guidance we will get

 

[JamezF]

current lot are planning to remove all reference to EU legislation ASAP, so god know what micky mouse food guidance we will get

I suspect much of that is aimed at removing regulations governing their friends in the City. Given all the other problems they'll be having to deal with, I'm struggling to imagine they'll bother worrying about much else.

James

 

[Mint Bee]

ultimately I'm sure it will depend on what 'oven ready' deals they want to do with their friends in countries where the animal husbandry and food manufacturing practises fall below our current level

 

[pargyle]

current lot are planning to remove all reference to EU legislation ASAP, so god know what micky mouse food guidance we will get

I suspect much of that is aimed at removing regulations governing their friends in the City. Given all the other problems they'll be having to deal with, I'm struggling to imagine they'll bother worrying about much else.

James

ultimately I'm sure it will depend on what 'oven ready' deals they want to do with their friends in countries where the animal husbandry and food manufacturing practises fall below our current level

Shall we just keep it to honey and jars in this thread - until such time as the Government interfere with our honey sales there's little point in discussing what might happen.

 

[pargyle]

Info on Somerset Beekeepers,
https://www.somersetbeekeepers.org.uk/members-blog/re-use-of-honey-jars

I think Murray nailed it ... Post #27 ... But there are clearly differing opinions - even within the FSA. The problem, as I see it, is that it may be fine to re-use jars for friends and family (with careful inspection, new lids and thorough cleaning) perhaps when people are not buying your honey but I'm not prepared to risk re-using jars for honey that I am selling. The crux is that you really don't know what has been done to jars once they are out of your sight and I would not be happy sellling a food product in a previously used jar no matter how fastidiously cleaned it was. If it's about recycling - well, glass gets well recycled and remanufactured - if it's about a few extra pence of profit - then put your price up to cover the cost of a new container. It's all about risk ... but, like all things beekeeping - it's about personal decisions.

 

[alunmeurig]

This you-tube video may help. I certainly found it very informative.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I can’t find any reference within the Honey regulations that requires storage conditions to be on the label as advocated by Laurence!

 

[Moobee]

Does anybody know if it’s acceptable to put the BB date/Lot number on a separate label on the base of the jar with a Best Before See Base on the main label?

That’s exactly what I do

 

[pargyle]

I can’t find any reference within the Honey regulations that requires storage conditions to be on the label as advocated by Laurence!

There isn't any requirement ....

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

Thanks Murray. Perhaps now we can settle this argument once and for all.

I tend to get blown away by the force of Murray's rhetoric. I happened to be telling my wife about the debate on the reuse or recycling of honey jars. What usually happens in these situations is that I get squashed by Esther's response. In a heartbeat, she came back with this: Murray repeatedly uses the term 'white flint' and states that it is specifically ONE use only. Is there a degree of bamboozlement going on here by introducing a technical term? 'White' simply means colourless and 'flint' refers to many kinds of glass.

Murray does say that the risks are very small at the cottage industry level. There are always risks in honey production and in all life. We manage them and make choices. It seems that if you have a number of customers who return jars so that they can be reused (not recycled), you can assume that they've not used them to clean paint brushes meantime. And you can assume that if you thoroughly clean and examine them, the level of risk in reusing them is very low. Choices for industrial scale producers are not necessarily the same as those for a cottage industry.

I'm just the messenger, remember.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes it’s a choice for us to make. As a hobby beekeeper if you are jarring just a couple of hundred a year you can make sure each jar is sound. New lids are a must.

 

[Wilco]

I tend to get blown away by the force of Murray's rhetoric. I happened to be telling my wife about the debate on the reuse or recycling of honey jars. What usually happens in these situations is that I get squashed by Esther's response. In a heartbeat, she came back with this: Murray repeatedly uses the term 'white flint' and states that it is specifically ONE use only. Is there a degree of bamboozlement going on here by introducing a technical term? 'White' simply means colourless and 'flint' refers to many kinds of glass.

Murray does say that the risks are very small at the cottage industry level. There are always risks in honey production and in all life. We manage them and make choices. It seems that if you have a number of customers who return jars so that they can be reused (not recycled), you can assume that they've not used them to clean paint brushes meantime. And you can assume that if you thoroughly clean and examine them, the level of risk in reusing them is very low. Choices for industrial scale producers are not necessarily the same as those for a cottage industry.

I'm just the messenger, remember.

Rhetoric may not be the right word as it presupposes lack of substance- I doubt that is a fair characterisation of Murray. It probably comes down to what the glass is able to take and what the manufacturers are confident in saying it is able to take
As you've noted, there's possibly a different decision between large scale commercial and hobbyist in terms of risk.

 

[JamezF]

Rhetoric may not be the right word as it presupposes lack of substance

Tricky I'd say it's used correctly to be honest, but there's certainly a suggestion in some contexts (perhaps a more modern meaning) that the intent of the argument is to mislead or misrepresent the truth.

James

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

... there's certainly a suggestion in some contexts (perhaps a more modern meaning) that the intent of the argument is to mislead or misrepresent the truth.

James

I was completely unaware of this modern meaning. I was referring to powerful and persuasive argument.

 

[Black Mountain Honey]

There isn't any requirement ....

It's not in the honey regulations but that isn't the only legislation that needs adherence when selling honey.

Maybe its just best practise, but the following guidance states any food with a best before date should include specific storage instructions to achieve that best before date.

Packaging and labelling​

Storage conditions and date labelling​

Food labels must be marked with either a ‘best before’ or ‘use by’ date so that it is clear how long foods can be kept and how to store them.

Further information can be found in the guide on date marking on the Waste & Resources Action Plan (WRAP) website.

 

[ericbeaumont]

you can assume that if you thoroughly clean and examine

you can assume that they've not used them to clean paint brushes

I wouldn't assume anything of the public.

Even if the risk is low, does the electricity, gas, water and labour justify removal of the label and washing & drying jars?

 

[pargyle]

It's not in the honey regulations but that isn't the only legislation that needs adherence when selling honey.

Maybe its just best practise, but the following guidance states any food with a best before date should include specific storage instructions to achieve that best before date.

Packaging and labelling​

Storage conditions and date labelling​

Food labels must be marked with either a ‘best before’ or ‘use by’ date so that it is clear how long foods can be kept and how to store them.

Further information can be found in the guide on date marking on the Waste & Resources Action Plan (WRAP) website.

I can see the reasoning behind it .... but as honey is not a perishable foodstuff I'd view storage data as belt, braces and a piece of string... I had a look at a few in the supermarket last night and there was only one that offered a storage suggestion ... Let's face it ... what storage conditions are likely to adversely affect honey ? Who could bring a case ? What would the case be based on ? What would the court say if it ever got that far ?

In any legal situation there is always applied the 'Is it reasonable' test ... '

So ...bit of a red herring I think Laurence ...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I can see the reasoning behind it .... but as honey is not a perishable foodstuff I'd view storage data as belt, braces and a piece of string... I had a look at a few in the supermarket last night and there was only one that offered a storage suggestion ... Let's face it ... what storage conditions are likely to adversely affect honey ? Who could bring a case ? What would the case be based on ? What would the court say if it ever got that far ?

In any legal situation there is always applied the 'Is it reasonable' test ... '

So ...bit of a red herring I think Laurence ...

And there's always a danger of wrongly assuming Food labelling regulations (the regulations that apply to most, but not all foods) apply to honey - they don't, otherwise we'd have to add an ingredients list to our labels. There are regulations specific and unique to honey for that reason.

 

[Into the lions den]

I tend to get blown away by the force of Murray's rhetoric. I happened to be telling my wife about the debate on the reuse or recycling of honey jars. What usually happens in these situations is that I get squashed by Esther's response. In a heartbeat, she came back with this: Murray repeatedly uses the term 'white flint' and states that it is specifically ONE use only. Is there a degree of bamboozlement going on here by introducing a technical term? 'White' simply means colourless and 'flint' refers to many kinds of glass.

Murray does say that the risks are very small at the cottage industry level. There are always risks in honey production and in all life. We manage them and make choices. It seems that if you have a number of customers who return jars so that they can be reused (not recycled), you can assume that they've not used them to clean paint brushes meantime. And you can assume that if you thoroughly clean and examine them, the level of risk in reusing them is very low. Choices for industrial scale producers are not necessarily the same as those for a cottage industry.

I'm just the messenger, remember.

Grade is '[white flint'. It tells you that on the product spec and on the pallet labelling. There are many others. Can also vary a little even within that by how much cullett is in the mix. (tends to be visible as a subtle greenness when a lot of jars are stacked together, invisible as a single unit)

Had guidance with batches of glass from Johnsen and Jorgesen, Freemen and Harding, and Greggs direct...that this was a one trip container that should not be reused. Still have the old sets of specs somewhere from our packing days...if I get some time after heather shifting I might try to dig them out....but they will be at least 15 yrs old. I thought this was a debate put to bed at least a couple of decades back when there was a successful case against someone who reused glass and not so tiny slivers came off the rim of the thread and cut the consumers mouth...(or at least so they claimed.)

A degree of perspective however......we have not packed a single jar since 2009 at which time I loaned out or filling machine so I would not be tempted to use it again....sharp end packing is a specialists game..and that was not for me. However I doubt that, with the constant pressure on costs and the increase in levels of imported glass, that the quality has risen since then...probably the opposite. Glad to be looking at this thread from the outside, means I dont have a horse in the race btw...

 

[blackcloud]

I jar mine with a digital scale underneath.
I can set the tare to bleep when the prescribed amount is dosed,so swmbo can do it without eye rolling.
I just have to ensure the right jars are provided in advance