Price of honey jars - up , up , up

[pargyle]

The romantic in me is liking the thought behind these dispensers.... However, if they are airtight (looks like the lid of that Fritz unit clamps well shut) then is air pressure not going to be a problem (which anyone having tried to fill from the gate on a large airtight bucket will have experienced - belch, glug, belch, glug etc, until you break the seal on the lid) ??

Conversely, if not airtight, is that not really bad for the honey, it being hygroscopic and all ?

Also, punters filling jars from a honey gate ?

Feels like maybe a recipe for poor outcomes the more I think about it.

Anyone any experience with these ?

Poor outcomes ? Sounds like a Grade A total DISASTER in the making to me !

Jeez, have you seen punters in Lidl getting the unwrapped baked goods out of the bins .... licking their fingers to open the bags and then picking up one of the croissants right at the back before puttng it back and chossing another ... they can't even use the tongs they provide what chance have they got with a honey gate ? Are you lot completely mad .....

 

[Antipodes]

Poor outcomes ? Sounds like a Grade A total DISASTER in the making to me !

Jeez, have you seen punters in Lidl getting the unwrapped baked goods out of the bins .... licking their fingers to open the bags and then picking up one of the croissants right at the back before puttng it back and chossing another ... they can't even use the tongs they provide what chance have they got with a honey gate ? Are you lot completely mad .....

You're tilting at windmills.

Double checking, I asked a mate who has bought honey this way for decades, if there are any issues with this system ...as a customer. No? he replied in a rather bemused tone. No problem at all. Stainless tank and metal gate.

I also checked with a local shop who sells honey this way (for at least 20 years that I've witnessed). The answer again was "no". Bog-standard opaque white plastic tank. Bog- standard plastic gate. Occasionally a previous customer "finds the wing nut a bit tight" on the honey gate and might need assistance to get the open. As to opening the gate and filling the jar or tub.. "They work it out" I was told. Not a problem. A plastic tub is left hanging on the gate to catch the last couple of drips.

 

[ericbeaumont]

hygroscopic

Don't believe it would absorb much during a 4-hour market.

punters filling jars from a honey gate

No, not a good idea, but at market this beekeeper would do the filling.

 

[judy12]

For retail sales I'd only use new jars, but my personal customers are happy to pay slightly less for their honey if they return the jars. They approve of recycling. I explain that I put the jars through the dishwasher on the highest temp, then into the oven foe 10 mins at 150c. I know they think think that's overkill.
What would be the official sterilisation temp?

 

[ericbeaumont]

they return the jars. They approve of recycling

Then best recycle, Judy.

See Murray & Karol's comments at posts 15, 16, 18 & 20, and bear in mind that an oven may be OK for warming marmalade jars, but it is by no means a clean zone (you should see ours).

 

[Hedgerow Honey]

We have two re-fill shops with the Lyson heated acrylic tank.
We supply tank & honey, they just sell it.
Both fill the customers jar for them, both have seen an almost doubling of honey sales since putting the tanks in store.
Heating is vital, as one found out over the Christmas break.
As already mentioned, any type of jar can be filled as it belongs to the customer, all the revelent details regarding the honey are on a label on the tank, TS up to now are quite happy with one of the stores recently having an inspection.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Poor outcomes ? Sounds like a Grade A total DISASTER in the making to me !

Jeez, have you seen punters in Lidl getting the unwrapped baked goods out of the bins .... licking their fingers to open the bags and then picking up one of the croissants right at the back before puttng it back and chossing another ... they can't even use the tongs they provide what chance have they got with a honey gate ? Are you lot completely mad .....

Come on Philip, Lidl!! - the people that attend Eric's 'markets' think that slumming it means going down to Waitrose rather than getting it delivered by Ocado

 

[Ian123]

You're tilting at windmills.

Double checking, I asked a mate who has bought honey this way for decades, if there are any issues with this system ...as a customer. No? he replied in a rather bemused tone. No problem at all. Stainless tank and metal gate.

I also checked with a local shop who sells honey this way (for at least 20 years that I've witnessed). The answer again was "no". Bog-standard opaque white plastic tank. Bog- standard plastic gate. Occasionally a previous customer "finds the wing nut a bit tight" on the honey gate and might need assistance to get the open. As to opening the gate and filling the jar or tub.. "They work it out" I was told. Not a problem. A plastic tub is left hanging on the gate to catch the last couple of drips.

But we are British and things like this are often beyond us…………

Come on Philip, Lidl!! - the people that attend Eric's 'markets' think that slumming it means going down to Waitrose rather than getting it delivered by Ocado

Didn’t they switch to M&S

 

[Karol]

For retail sales I'd only use new jars, but my personal customers are happy to pay slightly less for their honey if they return the jars. They approve of recycling. I explain that I put the jars through the dishwasher on the highest temp, then into the oven foe 10 mins at 150c. I know they think think that's overkill.
What would be the official sterilisation temp?

Dry heat sterilization requires a temperature of 160°C be maintained for a minimum of two hours. Environmentally unsound.

 

[fian]

Dry heat sterilization requires a temperature of 160°C be maintained for a minimum of two hours. Environmentally unsound.

It would be safer and less dangerous for a glass jar iii the use of ozone or hydrogen peroxide.

 

[pargyle]

Then best recycle, Judy.

See Murray & Karol's comments at posts 15, 16, 18 & 20, and bear in mind that an oven may be OK for warming marmalade jars, but it is by no means a clean zone (you should see ours).

I can't see a way that you can confidently have punters filling their own jars (or even jars that you provide) that guarantees that satisfactory hygiene can be maintained. I could see that the shopkeeper could do it and be sure .... but even then ... what's the point ? We are going back to the 1950's when our greengrocer was a horse and dray who came every Saturday morning .. weighed then tipped your veg in to your shopping bag and refilled your vinegar bottle from a barrel on the back of the dray.

I'm all for saving on disposable, land fill packaging but ... glass jars and metal lids are fully recyclable ... and the cost of re-sterilising - dishwasher then 2 hours in the (dubiously sterile) oven at 160 degrees ....

It's a non-starter.

 

[JamezF]

I'm all for saving on disposable, land fill packaging but ... glass jars and metal lids are fully recyclable ... and the cost of re-sterilising - dishwasher then 2 hours in the (dubiously sterile) oven at 160 degrees ....

There's still an environmental cost to recycling and to having the oven on for two hours though. If there are enough people who are happy to wash a jar by hand or in the dishwasher and have it refilled then that may well be the better option.

James

 

[Karol]

It would be safer and less dangerous for a glass jar iii the use of ozone or hydrogen peroxide.

Is that speaking from practical experience or just hypothetically?

 

[fian]

I can't see a way that you can confidently have punters filling their own jars (or even jars that you provide) that guarantees that satisfactory hygiene can be maintained. I could see that the shopkeeper could do it and be sure .... but even then ... what's the point ? We are going back to the 1950's when our greengrocer was a horse and dray who came every Saturday morning .. weighed then tipped your veg in to your shopping bag and refilled your vinegar bottle from a barrel on the back of the dray.

I'm all for saving on disposable, land fill packaging but ... glass jars and metal lids are fully recyclable ... and the cost of re-sterilising - dishwasher then 2 hours in the (dubiously sterile) oven at 160 degrees ....

It's a non-starter.

And what is the cost of recycling them again? Or do you think that glass magically recomposes itself once it has been broken into thousands of pieces?
The only difference is who bears the cost, the customer who washes and reuses them, the producer who sterilizes them or the industry that melts them down to provide a new one at a higher price.

 

[pargyle]

There's still an environmental cost to recycling and to having the oven on for two hours though. If there are enough people who are happy to wash a jar by hand or in the dishwasher and have it refilled then that may well be the better option.

James

It calls into question though - who is responsible if a punter is taken ill and the honey has been contaminated in some way ? The jar provider or the honey seller .... it's a pretty grey area. I would not risk it.

 

[fian]

Is that speaking from practical experience or just hypothetically?

Hypothetical, since both ozone and hydrogen peroxide with biological agents and their use as a sterilizer would not affect the glass.
Beverage bottlers typically use pure alcohol as a sanitizer prior to filling. The fruits that arrive at your house go through an ozone disinfection process.

 

[Ian123]

It calls into question though - who is responsible if a punter is taken ill and the honey has been contaminated in some way ? The jar provider or the honey seller .... it's a pretty grey area. I would not risk it.

Depends when it was contaminated…..in the tank the shop……in the customers container it’s down to them. You could argue it reduces the beeks liability’s.

 

[fian]

It calls into question though - who is responsible if a punter is taken ill and the honey has been contaminated in some way ? The jar provider or the honey seller .... it's a pretty grey area. I would not risk it.

All producers, sellers, distributors have civil liability insurance and a distinction must be made between a casual process that has the hygienic and sanitary measures prescribed by law and an intentional event.

 

[pargyle]

Depends when it was contaminated…..in the tank the shop……in the customers container it’s down to them. You could argue it reduces the beeks liability’s.

The difficulty would always be proving it ... retailers sell products that could be contaminated in packaging these days in order to avoid contamination by customers handling the goods as well as for the convenience.

 

[Karol]

There's still an environmental cost to recycling and to having the oven on for two hours though. If there are enough people who are happy to wash a jar by hand or in the dishwasher and have it refilled then that may well be the better option.

James

As an artisan enterprise under the careful purview of the artisan then I can see the attraction and I can see it being part of the mix. There's still the rest of the mix and that I suggest needs safe virgin glass jars whose providence is assured.