Polysupers - Anypoint?

[user 6228]

That's a good point, although I suspect the tree scenario would be the first choice. Of all the chimney ones I've seen, most often the vent in the room has been closed or papered over so there is no up draught.

read Seeley's work on the nest choices of honeybees, in "honey bee democracy"

 

[Hivemaker.]

I won't be bothering to go any further with the bluster (smoke screen) in you post. I have already shown you too much of how to do basic maths calculations, shown your premise of 300kg water evaporated (on your supplied data) to be rather OTT and demonstrated that anything you throw out on this forum is quite likely to be total rubbish.

Thank you for the detailed maths on this RAB, it has been interesting.

 

[wightbees]

I found this interesting http://jeb.biologists.org/content/212/3/429.full.pdf

The amount of water that has to be evaporated from dilute nectar
is enormous (Fig. 2). In order to increase the sugar concentration
from 20% to 82%, bees must evaporate 0.75 g water for every 1g
of nectar collected, and the mass of honey produced from a given
mass of nectar is correspondingly reduced. Recently we have
shown that foragers of A. mellifera scutellata collecting dilute
nectar of Aloe greatheadii var. davyana in dry winter air begin to
concentrate the nectar before returning to the hive (Nicolson and
Human, 2008). Because the crop is impermeable to both sugar and
water, we can only explain the doubling of crop sugar
concentration, from 20% to 40%, by evaporation on the tongue.
This contradicts the conventional wisdom that the concentration of
nectar is unchanged during its transport by bees between flowers
and the hive (Park, 1932). The advantage for the bees lies in
reducing the water load that has to be carried and the amount of evaporation needed in the hive

 

[mbc]

Mere evaporation? its a prodigous feat! even with the little push of the invertase reaction.
Each time I look deeper into the physics, it just gets more amazing...
that why i want to give them a "following wind" rather than a "hard beat to windward".

I truly think much of what good beekeeping is about could be paraphrased into attempting to provide a "following wind", a good phrase

Edit: The maths is far too simplistic to arrive at an estimated figure for how much water a colony needs to get rid of in a season, and heat produced by the colony is of minor relevance to accomplishing this, but thinking about it, the total value is going to be vast as the surplus honey stored by a colony is only the very tip of the iceberg of the overall nectar collected. But bees generally find it quite within themselves to easily regulate their water needs, both expelling excess, and collecting lots when there is a shortage.

 

[user 6228]

Thank you for the detailed maths on this RAB, it has been interesting.

he did less than half the maths... and ommited the interesting bit that this thread is about.


201.6L (water from 60kg honey) x 2260 KJ (latent heat of water per Kg)= 456MJ = 127 KWh

energy per kilo of sugar 16.25MJ/Kg
sugar needed to evaporate the 201.6L = 28Kg
the 28kg sugar releases on consumption 58% water =16.2L water
the 28kg sugar is diluted with 4 L of water for each Kg =112L

201.6 + (water from ripening)
16.2+ (water from burning sugar to ripen)
112 (water from the ripening fuel nectar)
----
330L

(i was right the first time after all)
Note:latent heat of water per Kg = energy needed to evaporate 1 kg of water .

 

[Hivemaker.]

...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

 

[victor meldrew]

Shirley admin ,isn't it time to put up an Oscar type award for pomposity with extra points for bloody mindedness ? Not forgetting the graffiti tag "Shirley"

VM


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[mbc]

...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

Bit harsh IMO, Derekm is having a pop at the physics, hes just forgotten the little biological beans in the middle.

 

[mbc]

Shirley admin ,isn't it time to put up an Oscar type award for pomposity with extra points for bloody mindedness ? Not forgetting the graffiti tag "Shirley"

VM

I've always thought we should have a ratings award system:
Stars for
-pomposity
-arrogance
-bloody mindedness
-dimwittery
-and a new one I thought of this morning, thinskindedness

edit; shirley ?

 

[user 6228]

...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience

The latent evaporation of water and basic calorimetry is not pseudoscience.

The energy in ripening honey is the same energy as in reducing the water content of syrup to produce fondant. its a lot.

It GCSE science...

very simple stuff and even bees have to obey thermodynamics

 

[victor meldrew]

I've always thought we should have a ratings award system:
Stars for
-pomposity
-arrogance
-bloody mindedness
-dimwittery
-and a new one I thought of this morning, thinskindedness

edit; shirley ?

Let's me out I've the skin of a rhino !

VM


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[mbc]

Let's me out I've the skin of a rhino !

VM


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Happarently I have the touch of a rhino, trampling over delicate sensibilities without a backwards glance !

 

[user 6228]

I found this interesting http://jeb.biologists.org/content/212/3/429.full.pdf

The amount of water that has to be evaporated from dilute nectar
is enormous (Fig. 2). In order to increase the sugar concentration
from 20% to 82%, bees must evaporate 0.75 g water for every 1g
of nectar collected, and the mass of honey produced from a given
mass of nectar is correspondingly reduced. Recently we have
shown that foragers of A. mellifera scutellata collecting dilute
nectar of Aloe greatheadii var. davyana in dry winter air begin to
concentrate the nectar before returning to the hive (Nicolson and
Human, 2008). Because the crop is impermeable to both sugar and
water, we can only explain the doubling of crop sugar
concentration, from 20% to 40%, by evaporation on the tongue.
This contradicts the conventional wisdom that the concentration of
nectar is unchanged during its transport by bees between flowers
and the hive (Park, 1932). The advantage for the bees lies in
reducing the water load that has to be carried and the amount of evaporation needed in the hive

Different bee different climate but definitly interesting thank you

 

[Pete D]

... and ommited the interesting bit that this thread is about. .

I thought the OP was 'Poly supers, any point ?'

After all the x = 3y + r2 = 300l or 300 kg stuff I am non the wiser.

 

[user 6228]

[VID][/VID]

just as well as doing by leccy would cost over £300 to ripen 60Kg

that should be £30

 

[mbc]

that should be £30

I dont think anyones paying attention to he sums anymore

 

[victor meldrew]

I personally don't use poly supers but can see an advantage in their being lighter than timber ones.
The ones I've seen in use seem to deteriorate (cosmetically anyway) quite quickly!
I shouldn't think there would be much damage from wax moth, assuming they are never used for brooding!
In my hands, the integrity of the joining surfaces would be compromised in no time at all, leading to the chance of robbing!
You pays your money and you takes your pick .
Bet you never thought your question would involve Stephen Hawkins ?
VM




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Madge]

... In my hands, the integrity of the joining surfaces would be compromised in no time at all ...
VM

Why, Victor?

 

[victor meldrew]

Because the poly is easily compressible and I'm a clumsy sod
VM


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[pargyle]

Well .. my scientific ability is limited to A level Sciences and maths (not even great grades and a long time ago !) - so I'm not commenting on the science.

However, I have heard Derek and Elaine do their lecture - to a very sceptical set of beekeepers - an audience of over 100 as well. I have to say that, even if he is 50% out on his calculations because of bee-biological factors, he makes a very convincing case for, as MBC puts it so succinctly, 'giving your bees a following wind'. His lecture was enough to convince a matchstick toting beekeeper sitting next to me to decide to throw his matches away and add some insulation ... after 20 odd years of through ventilation in his hives.

There can be no argument that the bees do have to remove an awful lot of water from the nectar to render it to honey and how much water is almost an irrelevant argument to most of us - the fact is that it MUST take some energy to do it. If you can reduce this energy usage by insulation then it has to be beneficial.

A bit more insulation and sealing the hive from draughts, in my book, was a no-brainer, long before I had heard of Derek's theories and hive testing. Even when doing my pre-bees research I could never fathom the reasoning behind through ventilation in winter and it came as a pleasant surprise when I happened upon this forum to discover there was a beekeeping world without matchsticks and where people were utilising top insulation in winter. It was a small step for me, when constructing my hive, to add insulation to the hive walls as the 'logical' progression - not scientific thinking on my part - seemed just common sense. I found Bill Bielby's book as well and his phrases 'You can never have enough insulation and the most successful way of overwintering bees is to provide a draught free hive' ... I paraphrase ... also hit home. It's not a massive leap of faith to come to the conclusion that insulation in times when they need to use energy (outside of winter) is just as beneficial to the colony.

Perhaps Derek is more interested in the science than the bees but as a 'high insulation' beekeeper myself (albeit small scale at present) I can see benefits in the bees that I have. I don't know whether my insulated hive contributes to a low varroa count, to bees that are healthy, to a very productive queen, to a total lack of brood disease, to a colony that has gone from a small swarm to an overwintering colony still on 7/8 frames, to a very gentle, well mannered and frugal colony and a hive full of honey (still pretty full at the beginning of February) but .... if it does, then I'm grateful.

For what little it costs to add that insulation and ensure they are totally dry and give them the ability to more effectively regulate their colony conditions I would recommend it to anyone as an experiment. If you have more than one hive (unlike me) you can insulate one and leave the others - if it works - what has it cost you - if it doesn't - no harm done !

As I said, it's a no brainer for me.