Polysupers - Anypoint?
- Thread starter lebouche
- Start date
Help Support Beekeeping & Apiculture Forum:
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2011
- Messages
- 6,479
- Reaction score
- 392
2" of recticel makes a good roof
Warped by the strap? :shock: Sounds like you've been a little heavy handed, but a DIY roof is an easy replacement.
Wife wants to convert all broods to poly because "they all look much cleaner, tidier and happier". Can't say I can argue.
Wife wants to convert all broods to poly because "they all look much cleaner, tidier and happier". Can't say I can argue.
itma
Queen Bee
Warped by the strap?
Simply impossible if the roof was on properly.
This story reads to me as though the roof was carelessly fitted, the hive strap overtightened AND the varroa tray left in for a very long time ... and all of that is supposed to be the fault of the hive?
Last edited:
Itchy
Field Bee
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2013
- Messages
- 766
- Reaction score
- 1
- Location
- Surrey
- Hive Type
- National
- Number of Hives
- Lost count and can't keep up
Why the mocking tone itma?
No, not at all the fault of the hive, more the inexperience of the hive purchaser and owner.
Leaving the varroa tray in? Yep, all my fault. Never seen a wild colony with a great hole below them, so don't dig the open floor fad in winter. What I hadn't banked on was the effect of humidity/poor insulation distribution/possible leaks in the hive/plastic non absorbing surface causing a damp problem. All the wooden hives with floors in are fine and doing well.
The roof is poor, and a difficult fit. I understand the roof has been remodelled by this manufacturer....I wonder why? As they are not issuing the revised roof to update those purchased, then I'll fabricate my own.
Warped by the strap....impossible? Actually no, not if you have a thin roof and over tighten to try and stop leaks of air.
These hives are not great for the beginner, and I wont be buying any more for a host of reasons. The supers, and the miller feeders will make for great insulated tops though.
No, not at all the fault of the hive, more the inexperience of the hive purchaser and owner.
Leaving the varroa tray in? Yep, all my fault. Never seen a wild colony with a great hole below them, so don't dig the open floor fad in winter. What I hadn't banked on was the effect of humidity/poor insulation distribution/possible leaks in the hive/plastic non absorbing surface causing a damp problem. All the wooden hives with floors in are fine and doing well.
The roof is poor, and a difficult fit. I understand the roof has been remodelled by this manufacturer....I wonder why? As they are not issuing the revised roof to update those purchased, then I'll fabricate my own.
Warped by the strap....impossible? Actually no, not if you have a thin roof and over tighten to try and stop leaks of air.
These hives are not great for the beginner, and I wont be buying any more for a host of reasons. The supers, and the miller feeders will make for great insulated tops though.
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2009
- Messages
- 4,035
- Reaction score
- 1,828
- Location
- Devon/South Hams
- Hive Type
- National
- Number of Hives
- 5
Last year my 2 polys were very wet inside top box. OMF left open. My conclusion was roof was not providing enough insulation. These were boxes purchased when a major supplier started to sell national polys a few years ago - and were my first and last poly hives
This year with added top insulation there has not been a problem. I was lulled into false sense of security as they were poly.
This year with added top insulation there has not been a problem. I was lulled into false sense of security as they were poly.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2011
- Messages
- 6,479
- Reaction score
- 392
Having had all of the manufacturers hives (all bar 3 only for thermal testing), I can say there is a wide variety in the styles and thickness of roof.
I suggest you look around for a different make hive or a roof from at different maker or buy an updated roof.
EPS and PIR can be warped just as wood can. When loading it up with straps or weights it pays to ensure it is properly seated and the load is well distributed.
To properly realise the advantages of insulation it is essential that roof makes a good seal with the rest of the box
Last edited:
I'm interested now, because IMO anyone using a poly hive for the first time would be a beginner, at least with poly?
The original roof is a better fit than the new one if we are considering a seal, it's been mentioned a few times how it was too tight to fit. That is easily solved by burnishing the recess in the roof with a smooth, hard object. The new roof is like the roof on a wooden hive, namely it simply rests on top of the hive.
I'm thinking about the warping. Did you use a framed crownboard, maybe? The roof won't sit on one of those properly because its smaller. That may explain the warping, especially if you wound that strap up tight. The strap only needs to be tight enough to stop the roof moving, don't overtighten. It's no good using framed crownboards on this hive unless you house it in something the roof fits onto. Take a look at the mod I made.
I got this hive when they were first produced and it's been overwintered in various set ups and I can honestly say I've never had dampness issues.
The original roof is a better fit than the new one if we are considering a seal, it's been mentioned a few times how it was too tight to fit. That is easily solved by burnishing the recess in the roof with a smooth, hard object. The new roof is like the roof on a wooden hive, namely it simply rests on top of the hive.
I'm thinking about the warping. Did you use a framed crownboard, maybe? The roof won't sit on one of those properly because its smaller. That may explain the warping, especially if you wound that strap up tight. The strap only needs to be tight enough to stop the roof moving, don't overtighten. It's no good using framed crownboards on this hive unless you house it in something the roof fits onto. Take a look at the mod I made.
I got this hive when they were first produced and it's been overwintered in various set ups and I can honestly say I've never had dampness issues.
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=23938&page=5
This has been on the hive this winter and I'm very pleased with it. Your bees will be fine on OMF.
This has been on the hive this winter and I'm very pleased with it. Your bees will be fine on OMF.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2011
- Messages
- 6,479
- Reaction score
- 392
if the stuff in lightblue is all wood may i suggest some changes?
itma
Queen Bee
Paynes original roof was too thin, and designed to be a tight fit onto the boxes - presumably to minimise the need for a strap or whatever.
The thin roof allows the coverboard to get colder than the walls, which makes the coverboard to first location of condensation.
I've used an empty (poly) super, filled with Kingspan, as additional top insulation. This stopped the coverboard condensation.
But the wetness Itchy reports is way beyond anything I've seen or otherwise heard reported.
Paynes now have a better (thicker) roof - which is a loose fit - and which 'wraps over' the side walls somewhat.
The old roof is an impossibly tight fit on the recent recent boxes. They seem to have increased the moulding density of the plastic, with the side effect that it springs out a couple of mm bigger - hence the problem with the already tight roof. For those unwilling to update the roof (its worthwhile), it is necessary to slightly 'work' the underside of the roof, so it can fit over a new box, as well as an old one.
The new thicker roof is a loose fit on both new and old boxes.
My suspicion is that (just possibly due to an old-style roof on a new-style box), the roof wasn't properly fitted, and in an attempt to compensate was strapped and overtightened. However that could have bent the roof, making the seal even worse, and the coversheet even colder, producing even more condensation.
And leaving the inspection board in place in the bottom of the hive simply made things worse.
Incidentally, I overwintered with a couple of bricks on each hive roof - which I find more convenient (though even less aesthetic) than a strap.
And I paint mine before use. The way the first coat is absorbed, and the nuc feeder seepages, suggest to me that painting is going to improve the weathertightness of these hives.
Last edited:
Itchy
Field Bee
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2013
- Messages
- 766
- Reaction score
- 1
- Location
- Surrey
- Hive Type
- National
- Number of Hives
- Lost count and can't keep up
I have two of these hives, and two of the old style miller feeders. I think I'll just foam bond the roof (correctly fitted) to the miller feeder and use the whole lot as an insulated roof. Will solve all the problems in one.
BeeJayBee
Queen Bee
If you're any good at DIY you could maybe make a separate, looser, cover and use that above the poly roof. It would be strong enough to be ratchet strapped and would probably dissuade badgers too.
Only suggesting it because my Langs have a slab of polystyrene covered by a metal outer roof. It's like this :-
Here's one http://www.swienty.com/shop/vare.asp?side=0&vareid=100021A
Only suggesting it because my Langs have a slab of polystyrene covered by a metal outer roof. It's like this :-
Here's one http://www.swienty.com/shop/vare.asp?side=0&vareid=100021A
itma
Queen Bee
I've bought a couple of the new roofs, rather than dedicate supers to Kingspan.
And currently I plan to just keep the old ones as spares (topping stacks of spare boxes is one likely role.)
Make no mistake, I think these hives are fine (the bees like them more than I do), but for winter the old roof can do with a little help - though it should not cause the extreme problems that Itchy reported.
The BHS roof fits, is stronger upturned as an 'inspection base' and looks better, but it is way more expensive.
BUT I think even the new feeder still seems to have problems.
I've recently bought a £10 old-style feeder with the intention of butchering it to make a heater+fan base for a polyhive to be used as a honey bucket warming cabinet. Take a look at Paynes "Venus honey heater" for my inspiration. I wouldn't dream of trying to use it as a feeder!
And it is just possible that I might also butcher one of the old roofs to make a steam inlet, so that I can use a wallpaper stripper into a polyhive stack over a big square "gravel tray" as a steam wax extractor for frame cleaning.
And currently I plan to just keep the old ones as spares (topping stacks of spare boxes is one likely role.)
Make no mistake, I think these hives are fine (the bees like them more than I do), but for winter the old roof can do with a little help - though it should not cause the extreme problems that Itchy reported.
The BHS roof fits, is stronger upturned as an 'inspection base' and looks better, but it is way more expensive.
BUT I think even the new feeder still seems to have problems.
I've recently bought a £10 old-style feeder with the intention of butchering it to make a heater+fan base for a polyhive to be used as a honey bucket warming cabinet. Take a look at Paynes "Venus honey heater" for my inspiration. I wouldn't dream of trying to use it as a feeder!
And it is just possible that I might also butcher one of the old roofs to make a steam inlet, so that I can use a wallpaper stripper into a polyhive stack over a big square "gravel tray" as a steam wax extractor for frame cleaning.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2011
- Messages
- 6,479
- Reaction score
- 392
make sure you dont have wood or non-foam plastic bridging the inside to outside. This is especially important at the top. You really need to have PIR or EPS with no thin spots or leaks at the top. Thin spots or wood will increase condensation at that point. Better to replace the entire roof with a thick piece oF PIR that has a thin, outer wood shell for external physical protection
That's totally OTT.
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2011
- Messages
- 6,479
- Reaction score
- 392
No its not OTT. The highest temperature differentials are near the roof. Any wood in the thermal circuit is going to shift a lot of heat as even with dry cedar the conductivity is 3 to 5 times that of foam.
Go ask a builder of what they have to do in new builds. From a thermal point of view, a hive is just a scale model of building that has the doors left open and inhabitants that go buzz.
