polystyrene hives not recommended for overwintering

[user 6228]

Journal of Apicultural Research
Article Title Colony condition and bee behaviour in honey bees (Apis mellifera) housed in wooden or polystyrene hives and fed 'bee cake' or syrup
Author(s) A Dodologlu, C Dulger and F Genc
Volume 43
Issue 1

Published Date 2/1/2004
Pages 3 to 8
Abstract In this paper we examine the interacting effects of two Langstroth hive designs (wood or polystyrene) and two feeding regimens (sucrose syrup or 'bee cake') on selected performance characters of honey bee (Apis mellifera) colonies in Turkey. Colonies housed in wooden hives achieved superior performance over polystyrene hives as measured by overwintering colony survival, winter population loss, brood area, number of frames of bees and low defensiveness. ....


shurely some mistake...

if you only read the abstract it looks damning and contrary to UK experience. Another "beekeeping is local"

HOWEVER if you read the full article you will find out that they have 2 vents in the roof

so it shows if you have poly DONT HAVE TOP VENTS

 

[sipa]

Poly hives with a mesh floor is ideal, winter losses minimal. Zero issues with condensation.

 

[La Folie]

Be interesting to see the size of their sample. Never had any problems with my langstroth poly hives.

 

[Alabamaeee]

Fin will love this thread

 

[Apple]

Interesting

However I have some doubts as to the use of this sort of research to UK beekeepers.
The Mediterranean sub species of honeybee they use would not survive our climate in a wooden box, possibly maybe in a polystyrene one.
Shall stick with my tried and tested and SUCCESSFUL WBC hives

Thank you!

James

 

[user 6228]

Interesting

However I have some doubts as to the use of this sort of research to UK beekeepers.
The Mediterranean sub species of honeybee they use would not survive our climate in a wooden box, possibly maybe in a polystyrene one.
Shall stick with my tried and tested and SUCCESSFUL WBC hives

Thank you!

James

i think you miss my point. This research has a major flaw, it tries to compare hives with top vents. all that it achieves is the obvious ... top vents negate insulation and more that insulation then makes for a greater energy loss through increased thermal convection.

it would have made a good physics AS question in the 1970's

 

[REDWOOD]

Brother Adam done his own experiments, with and without insulation, colonies without insulation were the quickest to build up in spring.

 

[thebeeman]

For the last 3 years I have had 20 hives in one apiary
10 Langstroth wood hives with a mixture of solid floors and mesh
10 Poly hives all with mesh floors
In the last 3 years
Losses
Poly 1
Wood 2 ( both solid floors)
Spring build up all wood hives out preformed poly hives
Hives with solid floors out preformed mesh floors.

 

[user 6228]

Brother Adam done his own experiments, with and without insulation, colonies without insulation were the quickest to build up in spring.

i cant find the exact configuration used and this is crucial to evaluating his experiments. however there are indications of an obssession with damp.
I beileve he was trying to recreate a north american system I suspect inadequate sealing or even venting
if you insulate and try to top ventilate you are not going to get benefits, on the contrary the more you insulate the more meticulous sealing of the top is required. go read the building regs or watch some bees

 

[wessexmario]

I'm not surprised that many don't understand the thermal dynamics as people often get into similar problems with conventional cold roof house construction.
The number of times I've seen attempts to insulate the roof layer of tiled roofs, or stop the ventilation at the eves, because they don't realise that a conventional loft space should be cold and drafty.

A house loft is the equivalent to the space between a crownboard and a top cover, that bit should be cold and drafty.
For good thermal efficiency and reduction of condensation the top bedroom [aka super/crownboard] should be airtight and well insulated from the roof space.

I'd recommend going along to Derek's presentation, well worth hearing whichever camp you are in (or if so far unconvinced either way)

 

[peteinwilts]

Brother Adam done his own experiments, with and without insulation, colonies without insulation were the quickest to build up in spring.

I am not entirely surprised. Insulation insulates from the heat as well as the cold. The first of the spring rays of sunshine would struggle to penetrate through the roof of an insulated box.

Correct me if I am wrong, but he would not have used mesh floors. All of my hives are sat on paving slabs. Not only do they make good anchors and platforms, but they also store the suns energy, which the releases the heat through the evening of spring evenings.

BA would not have done this, and therefore his insulation\non-insulation tests cannot be compared to hives with mesh floors.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Correct me if I am wrong, but he would not have used mesh floors.

BA did trial open mesh floors, decades before they were in common use, he did not like them at all.

 

[Ely]

The consensus of commercial guys is that poly promotes spring growth. They have enough hives to see the results without scientific tests of the benefits of poly/insulation in general

 

[wessexmario]

I think much is about not comparing apples with pears.

Unless you run two hives of different construction in the same location (so having the same weather), with the same hive layout, and the same strain of bees, there are so many variables that it will be impossible to make valid comparisons between hives and attribute the differences to a single factor.

 

[Elaine]

I think much is about not comparing apples with pears.

Unless you run two hives of different construction in the same location (so having the same weather), with the same hive layout, and the same strain of bees, there are so many variables that it will be impossible to make valid comparisons between hives and attribute the differences to a single factor.

The number of replications required to study any effect in a biological system is huge - and don't forget the double blind replications and the plecebo effect on the beekeepers (so there needs to be enough of them to remove their influence on the results )

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Brother Adam done his own experiments, with and without insulation, colonies without insulation were the quickest to build up in spring.

I'm aware of that too. But did they have an open mesh floor I wonder? If not, then his conditions are not the same.

And with the 10 year old paper, what's the point of a polystyrene hive with the loft hatch open (to use the building analogy)?

 

[REDWOOD]

Just reciting what BA wrote nothing more, I'm a great believer in insulation and no top ventilation, I watch and study bees more than what is considered healthy and yes I know my building regs on insulation coming from a family of builders.

 

[Finman]

Brother Adam done his own experiments, with and without insulation, colonies without insulation were the quickest to build up in spring.

And what insulation? Brother Adam wrote that he has sometimes so harsh winter that temp goes under freezing point.

i have had polyhives 27 years. I know that they are good in wintering and their build up is faster than in simple wood hives.
Boxes were first expencive and I wanted first see, what is the advantages compared to poor insulation. Spring build up was really quicker and hives got ealier yield.

Then 10 years ago I tried electrict heating in hive bottoms. The build up in big hives were dramatically faster. Electrict heating teached to me heat economy that I have never seen in books.

Many guys say that heat comes from sun.... They use tar paper to keep hives warm. Well well....
But coldest weathers are during rainy days and at night. Wind is bad too during rainy days.

The secret is that in a warm hive brood ball radius can expand bigger, and the volume of brood ball can be 2-3 larger that in cold hive.

Internal moisture is a problem in poly hives if you do not handle it properly. ..but you learn when life teaches.
But with mesh floor it works without any other arrangements.

 

[MartinL]

Yet again,


Are we not confusing;
Humidity,
Condensation and
Damp!

 

[user 6228]

Yet again,


Are we not confusing;
Humidity,
Condensation and
Damp!

you should try deciphering what is actually going on in some of the papers on bees and humidity that are written by entomologists who appear to be challenged by heat humidity and condensation in buildings and structures.

there are lots and lots of institutions getting basic stuff wrong or misapplying stuff ... this paper is just one example, where instead of testing heat retention they tested thermal convection of top apertures