polystyrene hives not recommended for overwintering

[user 6228]

Any study which shows improvements by increasing mass but not insulation e.g "stronger" colonies or multiple boxes /colonies grouped together, needs close scrutiny on whether the insulation and beekeeping practice is actually delivering significantly lower conductance and allows water retention. This because the physics of heat generation and transfer within and through the box show the the ratio of colony mass to conductance is the key factor in determining the box internal temperature.

 

[B+.]

Any study which shows improvements by increasing mass but not insulation e.g "stronger" colonies or multiple boxes /colonies grouped together, needs close scrutiny on whether the insulation and beekeeping practice is actually delivering significantly lower conductance and allows water retention. This because the physics of heat generation and transfer within and through the box show the the ratio of colony mass to conductance is the key factor in determining the box internal temperature.

What a load of bull.
You are saying that a colony's performance is completely down to the insulation it receives. This is blatantly not true.
Some queens will actually have more bees in the spring than they do in the autumn, no matter what sort of box they are stored in. This is because of the queen (i.e. biological capability) and not due to the physical conditions it is managed in.
Beekeeping involves much more than just insulating hives. There is a LOT of skill and knowledge behind it. Any beekeeper who thinks they are going to be able to keep bees just because the box is insulated is doomed to failure

 

[Finman]

.
I have thinked over the polyhives and insulated hives; does any research in internet help in wintering hives?

We have in every country our way to over winter hives, and beekeepers are ready to bleed for they best habits. However there are lots of do the job, as they do.

USA and Canada

Beekeepers have not climate based bee strains , so called "local breed". Package bees with Florida queens are "exported" up to Alaska. And Alaska has same hive construction as in Tropic.

- ALASKA: https://www.uaf.edu/files/ces/publications-db/catalog/anr/ABM-00230.pdf

University of Fairbanks: Killing bees and buying new packkage bees in spring is the most economic way to over wintrer bees in Alaska.-

- kill the queen in time when you have store ready combs over winter.
- when you extract the last yield, kill the bees with *.* chemicals

CANADA

80% out of beekeepers are professionals. Average yields are near 100 kg/hive.
Best hives may get 300 kg/hive.


Canada does not use insulated hives. Polyhive is rare.
Mostly they use insulating wrapping or hubs.
Hives are in 4 hive group on storing floor. Then they can be lifted from wintering area to spring yield area-

Winter temps are often -40C

USA

US beekeepers does not even understand what is the term Insulation.
California beekeepers give advices to Michican, how to keep bees. When Michican has -25C, California has +25C.
I was on Beemaster forum 7 years, and I can tell that US beekeepers are really lost in over wintering bees. Even 3 boxes winter food = 60 kg recommended to Michigan, when at same situation Finland uses 20 kg.

USA is the last Place to get knowledge about wintering.

 

[Finman]

.
In eastern Europe

The whole hive construction is different compared to Langstroth.

Summers are warm but winters very cold.

Mainly colonies are small but they keep huge amount of hives in same places.

The same kind of system has been kept in Finland 50 years ago when I started beekeeping. Norway has still those old systems with Black Bees.


Pictures from Ukraine
https://www.google.fi/search?q=beek...ved=0ahUKEwiAl7rj-sbJAhVp8XIKHd5WBZYQ_AUIBigB

Eastern European countries have been poor under coltroll of Soviet Union and they life has not been very easy either after that 25 years period.

It is interesting to see their "common sense" solutions.

Ukraine is one of the biggest honey exporters, but country is second biggest in Europe.

 

[user 6228]

What a load of bull.
You are saying that a colony's performance is completely down to the insulation it receives. This is blatantly not true.
Some queens will actually have more bees in the spring than they do in the autumn, no matter what sort of box they are stored in. This is because of the queen (i.e. biological capability) and not due to the physical conditions it is managed in.
Beekeeping involves much more than just insulating hives. There is a LOT of skill and knowledge behind it. Any beekeeper who thinks they are going to be able to keep bees just because the box is insulated is doomed to failure

Read my post again it's apparent you haven't read it with my previous post. No where do they state a colonies performance is solely down to thermal performance. But given studies that don't measure thermal performance yet attempt to pass judgement on thermal performance
effects on honeybees, I am saying why they need close scrutiny

 

[Finman]

What a load of bull.
You are saying that a colony's performance is completely down to the insulation it receives. This is blatantly not true

When I look wintering with 53 years experience, I can tell that first of all, all depends on breeding bees.

Breeding bees is a huge work which Finnish professionals have done on this field.

Breeding has happened mostly during last 40 years with Italian bees.
Black bee has vanished By the help of varroa.

Then we started to get Carniolan bees about 30 years ago. It is most popular in North.
Buckfast is quite rare, about 2%.

Polyhive started to change everything since 25 years ago.
In summer we can use what ever honey boxes, like simple wall wooden.

Insulated wooden hives are obligatory, if you make organic honey.

.

 

[Finman]

What a load of bull.

Beekeeping involves much more than just insulating hives. There is a LOT of skill and knowledge behind it. Any beekeeper who thinks they are going to be able to keep bees just because the box is insulated is doomed to failure

That is odd thinking.

May I ask, what is the most important in the car, motor, front wheel or the air inside the wheel.

B+ is right. Insulating or wintering is not difficult, because if you do not understand this at once in Finland, you are not a beekeeper next spring.

There are lots of work during 3 months, how to be ready next spring to catch yield

Wintering in Finland

July
- nucs
- new good queens

August
- winter brood
- kill varroa
- reduce the hives from 6 box to one box
- start winter feeding

September
- Finish feeding
- get ready the hives for winter, and do not disturbe them
- mouse protection, woodpeckers

In November: oxalic acid

Insulation

Buy ready hives or make your owns


In winter
.
Debate about all with other beekeepers!!!!!
Shoot (verbally) everything which moves
.

 

[B+.]

given studies that don't measure thermal performance yet attempt to pass judgement on the effects on honeybees, I am saying why they need close scrutiny

The point is that the basis for comparison is that all colonies in a study should be kept under identical conditions. To me, this seems so obvious that it doesn't need to be stated.
Your work is interesting and SUGGESTS that increased insulation aids winter survival but your sample size (If I remember correctly it was 3 colonies?) isn't enough to state categorically that we should all rush out and put lots of extra insulation on our colonies. I, for one, remain to be convinced. I think it could end up being a double edged sword (like most things in beekeeping) where pests and diseases could also flourish.

 

[Finman]

Your work is interesting and SUGGESTS that increased insulation aids winter survival but your sample size .

That is true. Finland has decades' exparience about insulation of hives, but it is better to forget over 30 years ols knowledge. Things have changed totally here in beekeeping.


We have polyhives or self made insulated hives.

The biggest threat is not cold, but varroa and diseases. But cold can destroy lots of hives, when we get really cold winter. like -30C for long periods. Extreme cold is not bad but a long period is.

Mostly self made has 2 thin ply wood WALLS, and the gap is filled with some insulation.

Then the most important thing is that the hives are standard size and easy to handle. Modern box stardards are good, and no need to change them.

When hive has enough food to over winter, insulation is good enough.

 

[For want of a better word]

Mainly colonies are small but they keep huge amount of hives in same places

Few large colonies of Mediterranean bees or many smaller colonies of native black bees, depending upon the climatic conditions and how well insulated the hive is...
Is that what you mean?

Sat next to an elderly lady in the train last week... she had a whole argument with herself about the rights and wrongs of adding yeast to bread... totally oblivious to the other passengers in the carriage... reminded me of someone!

Yeghes da

 

[For want of a better word]

Mainly colonies are small but they keep huge amount of hives in same places

Few large colonies of Mediterranean bees or many smaller colonies of native black bees, depending upon the climatic conditions and how well insulated the hive is...
Is that what you mean?

Sat next to an elderly lady in the train last week... she had a whole argument with herself about the rights and wrongs of adding yeast to bread... totally oblivious to the other passengers in the carriage... reminded me of someone!

Yeghes da

 

[For want of a better word]

Mainly colonies are small but they keep huge amount of hives in same places

Few large colonies of Mediterranean bees or many smaller colonies of native black bees, depending upon the climatic conditions and how well insulated the hive is...
Is that what you mean?

Sat next to an elderly lady in the train last week... she had a whole argument with herself about the rights and wrongs of adding yeast to bread... totally oblivious to the other passengers in the carriage... reminded me of someone!

Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

Mainly colonies are small but they keep huge amount of hives in same places

Few large colonies of Mediterranean bees or many smaller colonies of native black bees, depending upon the climatic conditions and how well insulated the hive is...
Is that what you mean?



Yeghes da

I do not know what you mean

Should we debate, what size of hives they have in the globe on in Mediterranean countries?

Beehives in Egypt The country is at same level as Florida, from where queens spread all over to USA.

.

 

[For want of a better word]

Duplicate.....
so much for "Call me Dave's" High speed broadband for Cornwall!

Yeghes da

 

[For want of a better word]

I do not know what you mean

.

Don't quite understand what you mean either Finnie me old M8

Yeghes da

 

[Finman]

Don't quite understand what you mean either Finnie me old M8

Yeghes da

You know very well, what you mean, but that is only way how you can show your intelligency....

It is called Pawlow reaction.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Don't quite understand what you mean either Finnie me old M8

Yeghes da

Nothing new there then

 

[Finman]

Nothing new there then

You have that dam Pawlow reflex too.

 

[Finman]

.
Omitted to all Welsh and Omar Valley beekeepers
Put this on wall.

Iwan Petrowitsch Pawlow

 

[For want of a better word]

You know very well, what you mean, but that is only way how you can show your intelligency....

It is called Pawlow reaction.

What has this got to do with Anna Pavlova?

Something very subtle or is something being lost in translation?

Yeghes da

Yeghes da