Patternless foundation, or negative patterned foundation

[pargyle]

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[ugcheleuce]

The whole question [on that page] is about natural combs versus foundation frames.

Yes, I agree. The question being asked in the article is whether drawn-out comb is better, and whether old comb is better than young comb. I think we agree on this.

My point previously was that the studies on that page (with the exception of Tibor Szabó's study from the 1970s) all seem to mean "plastic foundation" when the word "foundation" is used. Szabó's study most likely does involve wax foundation (given the date of his study), but my impression is that none of the other studies involved wax foundation.

This may well explain why Allen Dick's studies show a much more dramatic difference between "foundation" and comb than Tibor Szabó's study does -- because Tibor's study involved wax foundation and Allen used only plastic foundation.

 

[pargyle]

Yes, I agree. The question being asked in the article is whether drawn-out comb is better, and whether old comb is better than young comb. I think we agree on this.

My point previously was that the studies on that page (with the exception of Tibor Szabó's study from the 1970s) all seem to mean "plastic foundation" when the word "foundation" is used. Szabó's study most likely does involve wax foundation (given the date of his study), but my impression is that none of the other studies involved wax foundation.

This may well explain why Allen Dick's studies show a much more dramatic difference between "foundation" and comb than Tibor Szabó's study does -- because Tibor's study involved wax foundation and Allen used only plastic foundation.

Hi Samuel,

Well ... I was the first on this thread to mention foundationless as a viable alternative to your suggestion that pattern free foundation may be a way to go, so I'm sorry ... but I don't think you got any positive answers to your OP ... indeed, reading back through the thread, I can't see anyone who uses either plain wax sheets or negative embossed sheets so you may not get an informed answer.

I hadn't intended hijacking your thread and turning it into a foundation/foundationless debate but there's obviously interest in this and now there's a new thread, started by Tom Bick, which, if you haven't read it, might be of interest. You'll have to weed out the bits of Fincrap I'm afraid.

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27494

 

[ugcheleuce]

I am glad that, in the UK, we don't have restrictions on the type of hive/frame etc. that are found in Canada.

Yeah! Inpectors just burn hives if they see something odd in hives.

That's not right ... in the UK they only have the right to burn AFB infected hives...

In Canada (or at least in some parts of Canada), inspectors can burn hives for various reasons that have nothing to do with disease. For example, if the bee inspector doesn't like your hive and tells you to get a different one, and you don't, then he can come and destroy your hive, if he wants to.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90b06_e.htm

Interestingly this law doesn't say that hives should be inspectable, but just that they should contain moveable frames. It doesn't say that there must be comb on those movable frames, or that the frames should be removable -- just "moveable". And the registration form for beekeepers does not have a field for "type of hive". A nice little loophole for the intrepid beekeeper?

 

[pargyle]

In Canada (or at least in some parts of Canada), inspectors can burn hives for various reasons that have nothing to do with disease. For example, if the bee inspector doesn't like your hive and tells you to get a different one, and you don't, then he can come and destroy your hive, if he wants to.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90b06_e.htm

Interestingly this law doesn't say that hives should be inspectable, but just that they should contain moveable frames. It doesn't say that there must be comb on those movable frames, or that the frames should be removable -- just "moveable". And the registration form for beekeepers does not have a field for "type of hive". A nice little loophole for the intrepid beekeeper?

Yes ... but Finman's comment was about beekeeping in the UK ... not Canada - where we have a very different regime of beekeeping regulation which is nothing like Canada.

 

[Finman]

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[ugcheleuce]

Instead of "weeding out" Finman's posts, I tend to examine them for useful information (he has the benefit of having had years of experience), although I obviously don't always agree with him/her.

 

[pargyle]

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[pargyle]

Instead of "weeding out" Finman's posts, I tend to examine them for useful information (he has the benefit of having had years of experience), although I obviously don't always agree with him/her.

If you look at some of my posts you will find that I agree with some of his stuff ... but in between ? Well, make your own mind up ...

 

[Finman]

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[pargyle]

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[Madge]

... bees do equally well with foundation embossed with a cell pattern than with foundation that is smooth. ... So, this made me wonder whether a negative embossed pattern would help the bees ...

... I don't think you got any positive answers to your OP ... indeed, reading back through the thread, I can't see anyone who uses either plain wax sheets or negative embossed sheets so you may not get an informed answer.
...

I experimented a bit last year (2013) with flat sheets of foundation and strips. From my limited experience, it seemed to me that the bees prefer strips to an entire flat sheet. (First choice, of course, is drawn comb.) They ignored the flat sheet until they felt really pushed to use it.

I can't quite see that rolling a negative pattern on the sheet (at the right spacing) is any different than an embossed sheet. One side of an embossed sheet can be considered the negative of the other side - it's the same.

View attachment 9411

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[pargyle]

I experimented a bit last year (2013) with flat sheets of foundation and strips. From my limited experience, it seemed to me that the bees prefer strips to an entire flat sheet. (First choice, of course, is drawn comb.) They ignored the flat sheet until they felt really pushed to use it.

I can't quite see that rolling a negative pattern on the sheet (at the right spacing) is any different than an embossed sheet. One side of an embossed sheet can be considered the negative of the other side - it's the same.

QUOTE]

That's interesting ... at last, someone speaking from experience about the OP ... you would think (as Samuel did) that bees (being the opportunists that they are) would welcome a whole sheet of plain wax to start them off. Rather confirms Tom's theory that bees really do prefer to build their own comb from scratch. That rather begs the next question - If you put a frame with a sheet of normal foundation in it alongside one with just a starter strip in a new colony - which would the bees draw out in preference ? And then - one perhaps has to ask why ?

 

[Finman]

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Wax-comb Foundation was invented in 1857. I bet that inventors tried first plain sheets.

In 1852, L. L. Langstroth, a Congregational minister from Pennsylvania, patented a hive with movable frames that is still used today.

http://www.beesource.com/resources/usda/history-of-beekeeping-in-the-united-states/

In Europe and in Ukraine beekeepers made at same time same inventions.

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Ukraine: The museum in named to honor Petro Prokopovych, a Ukrainian beekeeper who lived between 1775 and 1850. He is credited with being among the first to invest bee hives with movable frames.

http://www.outdoorplace.org/beekeeping/Museum/Museum2.htm

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[pargyle]

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[Finman]

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[pargyle]

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[Finman]

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[VEG]

Why don't you both give up commenting on each other's posts?
Or speak/abuse each other by pm.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Why don't you both give up commenting on each other's posts?
Or speak/abuse each other by pm.

I agree, getting tired of deleting their posts, tending to leave it to the end of the day, and delete the lot in one go, they are at it in just about every thread, worse than some kids.