Patternless foundation, or negative patterned foundation

[Dusty Rhodes]

You and finman obviously have issues which I have no intention of getting involved with!
VM

I was about to say, "Well said, sir," till I noticed that you ended the sentence with a preposition.

Which is, of course, something up with which we will not put.

Dusty.

 

[Finman]

I was about to say, "Well said, sir.

Many of you are so good in "well saying". But you seldom correct faults in beekeeping knowledge.

.

 

[pargyle]

I have attempted to point out the practicalities of foundation as a tool .
The fact that bees happily produce comb to their own design isn't disputed by my post.
You and finman obviously have issues which I have no intention of getting involved with!
VM


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I wasn't disagreeing with you VM ... I don't have an issue with Finman ... he has an issue of his own ...

 

[pargyle]

.
Natural combs have more drone cells than foundation frames.

Apidologie 33 (2002) 75-86
DOI: 10.1051/apido:2001008

The effect of drone comb on a honey bee colony's production of honey Thomas D. Seeley

Department of Neurobiology and Behavior, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY 14853, USA
(Received 15 May 2001; revised 28 August 2001; accepted 16 November 2001)

Abstract
This study examined the impact on a colony's honey production of providing it with a natural amount (20%) of drone comb.

Over 3 summers, for the period mid May to late August, I measured the weight gains of 10 colonies, 5 with drone comb and 5 without it.

Colonies with drone comb gained only 25.2 +/-16.0 kg
whereas those without drone comb gained 48.8 +/- 14.8 kg.

Colonies with drone comb also had a higher mean rate of drone flights and a lower incidence of drone comb building. The lower honey yield of colonies with drone comb apparently arises, at least in part, because drone comb fosters drone rearing and the rearing and maintenance of drones is costly. I suggest that providing colonies with drone comb, as part of a program of controlling Varroa destructor without pesticides, may still be desirable since killing drone brood to kill mites may largely eliminate the negative effect of drone comb on honey yields.

As always cherry picking your studies ... despite what this OLD study says there is one resounding fact as far as I am concerned ... if your bees are left to build what THEY want to build ... be that 20% drone comb or not ... then (IMO) that has to be BETTER for the bees than trying to inflict on them what YOU think you want them to do.

My bees did have a lot of drone comb in June and July - certainly in the order of 20% (I uncapped a lot of it looking for varroa ... and did not find ANY) but by August they had changed the drone comb to standard comb and were filling it with pollen and honey ...

I'm not desperate to secure every last ounce of honey as you seem to want to do ... I've left them with all the honey they made this summer and if there's any left in Spring then I will take it then. My style of beekeeping is nothing like yours .... I've never said your style is wrong ... but I get fed up with your preaching that everyone else who does not agree or follow the creed according to Finman IS wrong ... and telling everyone that going foundationless does not work ... because, quite clearly, it does.

And ... if I get a couple of kilos less honey as a result of me allowing my bees to work the hive their way ... so what ? I measure success on keeping healthy bees who appear to be reasonably productive, are gentle and pleasant to handle and who do not require tens of pounds of sugar to get them through the winter ... that's my yardstick and if I get a honey crop in spring then that's an added bonus.

Foundationless is just one way I can help my bees achieve what they want to do and just perhaps (and I have no evidence for this) it may contribute to the lack of varroa in my colony.... who knows ?

 

[Tom Bick]

I have a slight advantage in that over my short eight years of beekeeping I have had a foot in both camps and started with foundation, but with a fascination for natural comb have experimented and for the past two seasons run all my hives foundationless.

It comes down to personal choice at the end of the day VM is right foundation is a good tool for the beekeeper and perhaps no great help to the bees but something they will work with. A hive full of foundation will give you frame after frame of almost identical comb and makes for fast inspections although a bit dull after a while. Where as a hive of natural comb no two frames are the same and will take slightly more time to inspect but they only sharpen your beekeeping skills in my opinion.

If honey is your sole intention for beekeeping then its best you stick with foundation but you may just be surprised like me and notice a change in your bees for the better. It may be down to other management techniques but my bees over the last two years have out performed beekeepers in my area and the varroa factories predicted to date has not materialized and no noticeable increase in varroa.

I could go on about observations I have seen comparing the two but somehow I think this place just won’t allow for commonsence debate any more and perhaps pm’s are the only way forward.

Foundation or not its still beekeeping at the end of the day.

 

[VEG]

Tom bick please don't be put off posting your findings. There are people interested in what you are doing. If need be start a thread of your own. I for one would like to read it.


Craig

 

[Finman]

And ... if I get a couple of kilos less honey as a result of me allowing my bees to work the hive their way ?

My point is, what I want to everyone to know is, that question is not about couple of kilos. YOu have a Troya Horse in your sentence.

When you start 5 box hive, it takes 2 years to build up, and you need 5 kg foundations or let them do combs all. If you do not use foundation, the hive needs 40 kg extra honey to draw those combs.

I renew 2 box foundations every year per hive. It needs 15 kg honey every year. But it is not away from my yield, because it belongs to production system.

Your production system needs 30 kg honey instead of my 15 kg.

And question what bees really want? - The most important is to make 2 swarms every summer and they really want to sting me, and they really really want to see how I run!

.

 

[Finman]

.

I'm not desperate to secure every last ounce of honey as you seem to want to do ... ?

Yeah. 40 kg = 1400 ounces.

You started last June.
It took me several years before I was able to extract honey from my hives.

Then I noticed that when I put 4 kg swarm into 2 langstroth box hive, they brought 40 kg honey, plus they drew 30 frames of foundations in first summer. The key was however the good queens, what I changed to every swarms. And really bees tried to resist their queen changing.



-

 

[Itchy]

Tom bick please don't be put off posting your findings. There are people interested in what you are doing. If need be start a thread of your own. I for one would like to read it.


Craig

Me too

 

[pargyle]

Tom bick please don't be put off posting your findings. There are people interested in what you are doing. If need be start a thread of your own. I for one would like to read it.


Craig

+ Another one ... I'm a few years behind Tom but what I've seen in my first year is everything that Tom has described and more (subtle) differences between my bees and those I have seen (and handled) in more traditional hives.

 

[Finman]

.
Nothing odd in your thoughts Pargyle. There are whole world wide societes around that "natural beekeeping". Like this http://www.------------/forum/

As you see, that name cannot even mention on this forum. Normal beekeeping and natural beekeeping just do not fit together. Natural beekeepers have their own truths.

Mostly official bee research has been founded to support beekeeping industry. And quite few countries have resources to keep research. Like in Canada, 80% of beekeepers are professionals. They rule, what Canada can research.
In Finland we have not scientific beekeeping. It is too expencive. You need 20 hives and 3 years time to find out something. Nowadays researchers get some money from University but most of money they must get outside of university. So, what to research that somebody is ready to give money to you? There is a huge competition about money.


And as I have seen thousands of times, research data has no value when a beekeeper believes on something.

Best xample is a Worker Queen. University of Sheffield revieled 10 years ago that there is NO Worker Queen. But however, beekeepers make the same procedures this day as 10 years ago to eliminate that Queen, which cannot fly.

.

.


.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

from another thread on here I've gleaned that eleven frames of foundation weighs 608 grammes (approximately 1 pound 5 1/2 oz in real money) if you change the brood frames every three years as per NBU guidelines, figures of between six and eight pounds of honey are quoted to make a pound of wax so let's take a median 7 - that's an annual loss of 3lbs 2 ounces of honey (I haven't bothered counting the wax needed for cell formation as that wound be needed whatever method of beekeeping you adopt).
As for super foundation, well it's either a one off as you can reuse stores comb again and again or, as you will be using naturally drawn unwired comb you could go down the cut comb line - the premium charged for this will offset the 'loss' of your precious honey - I charge £6.00 for an 8ox piece of cut comb compared to £5.00 for a 12 oz jar that's a premium of £2.00 per pound of honey and as it is purported that a pound of beeswax supports 22 pounds of honey in comb it means that for a 'sacrifice' of 7lbs of honey I 'make' six pound twenty eight and a half pence for every 'lost' pound of honey as compared to six pounds sixty six for a pound of extracted honey, but a cut comb container costs about 10p compared to 26p for a 12 oz hex jar (at the price for 1500 from Patteson's this month) AND as a postscript I could probably charge more for my cut comb if I put my mind to it - it was only an experiment this year.
Now my brain hurts and I've forgotten what my point was so I've finally achieved what seems to be the main thrust of this thread and produced a long rambling post of complete and utter b*ll*x and will probably corrected my some sad mathematically gifted know it all as to my workings out.

Merry Christmas and God bless us one and all!

All my calculations are approximate BTW

 

[Finman]

from another thread on here I've gleaned that eleven frames of foundation weighs 608 grammes

What is the dimensions of frame?

But in Finland beekeepers want that foundations are quite thick. Then bees get building material to build WALLS to combs.

I have often joined pieces of foundations with hammering. In the joint wax is douple thick. But when bees form the comb, it is difficult to see the joint, It is reworked very carefully.

And like you see, a mouth of cells has a thick wax edge.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

And another thing!

people seem to have missed this point

.
Abstract
I suggest that providing colonies with drone comb, as part of a program of controlling Varroa destructor without pesticides, may still be desirable since killing drone brood to kill mites may largely eliminate the negative effect of drone comb on honey yields.

 

[pargyle]

.
Nothing odd in your thoughts Pargyle. There are whole world wide societes around that "natural beekeeping". Like this http://www.------------/forum/

As you see, that name cannot even mention on this forum. Normal beekeeping and natural beekeeping just do not fit together. Natural beekeepers have their own truths.

But I don't consider myself to be a 'Natural Beekeeper' ... My hive is a framed hive, I feed them as necessary, if in the awful event that I discovered a serious varroa problem then I would consider treatment. I'm convinced that some of the things that have/are being inflicted on our bees are detrimental and I seek to avoid those things ... So far, it's working for me and a number of others that I know (perhaps a lot more than you would imagine, as sticking your head above the parapet can result in the sort of response that I get from you !).

All I am saying to you is that there are alternative ways ... they may not yield the full commercial quantities of honey that you require, they may sometimes be a little more time consuming, they may even require a degree of thought about what you are doing and what is happening. I certainly would not recommend these alternative methods until you have a fairly sound knowledge and understanding of what is required in management of the colony and the potential for a varroa infestation. I don't profess to know everything and I'm sure next season is going to test me but ... it's working for me and if other people want to try then they should not be discouraged.

Happy Christmas Finman ... may you and your bees thrive and have a happy healthy year in 2014 !

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What is the dimensions of frame?

Dimension of frames most British beekeepers use which is what i thought was being discussed

But in Finland beekeepers want that foundations are quite thick. Then bees get building material to build WALLS to combs.

But we're not in Finland

I have often joined pieces of foundations with hammering. In the joint wax is douple thick.

and I accept the fact that you're twice as thick as the average British beek so there's another reduction in honey 'loss'

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I don't consider myself to be a 'Natural Beekeeper'

Quite the opposite - heard some rumours he can be quite unnatural at times

 

[Finman]

it's working for me and if other people want to try then they should not be discouraged.

Happy Christmas Finman ... !

Working with 6 months experience with 15 frames od bees! You are quick to learn!

I took from me 7 years and 20 hives that I did not met big surprises any more. But 10 years later I bought my first apartment from capital city with honey money.

Perhaps Basic difference between us is the level of passion: to do as much as possible, and do as little as possible

I started at 15 year old and you started at 60



May force be with you, Pargyle!
.

 

[Finman]

But we're not in Finland

Yes, I know it (why), but I tell experiences from Finland. I try to teach you.


And I know that Britain has either beekeeping industry researching.
It was profounded in 2009.

As I have said, your beekeeping is very same as in Finland, but 50 years behind.

50 years ago average honey yield was in Finland almost like yours, 20 kg.

Typical hive 50 years ago , so called Finland National hive, copied from Swedish National hive, and that copied from German National hive

.
.

 

[pargyle]

As for super foundation, well it's either a one off as you can reuse stores comb again and again or, as you will be using naturally drawn unwired comb you could go down the cut comb line - the premium charged for this will offset the 'loss' of your precious honey - I charge £6.00 for an 8ox piece of cut comb compared to £5.00 for a 12 oz jar that's a premium of £2.00 per pound of honey and as it is purported that a pound of beeswax supports 22 pounds of honey in comb it means that for a 'sacrifice' of 7lbs of honey I 'make' six pound twenty eight and a half pence for every 'lost' pound of honey as compared to six pounds sixty six for a pound of extracted honey, but a cut comb container costs about 10p compared to 26p for a 12 oz hex jar (at the price for 1500 from Patteson's this month) AND as a postscript I could probably charge more for my cut comb if I put my mind to it - it was only an experiment this year.

Cut comb and chunk honey was something I had seriously considered should I ever reach the stage where I have a surplus ... my local farm shop has 150gm (5.3 oz in old money) of cut comb selling at £8.99 and sell out as fast as they get it in.

There's even this clever bit of marketing on the internet ...

http://www.thehoneydoctor.com/acatalog/ENGLISH_COMB_HONEY.html

£30 for 2lbs of untreated honeycomb ... no extraction, no jars, just a see through cardboard box. Not a bad return.