Passionate Beekeeper looking for work

[Penninetrader]

You can tell I have been away doing so much with my own business when I did not notice an ad like the one here.....we are ALWAYS interested in good enthusiastic staff.

BUT

Although not 100% sure it does sound like he is a Filipino....so non UK resident and since Brexit the rules for hiring them exist (was a lot harder for these staff pre brexit..but then we could get EU staff.....not now) but are really complex and expensive.

Also took us 18months to get 'bee farmer' added to the list of eligible occupations for which we had to demonstrate a long term pattern of no suitable applicants. Recently you get nil to a handful of applicants...but none of them actually want the job...its benefit quota applications for the greatest part. Several bee farmers report the same...no suitable applicants at all.

So, first you have to register and then be approved as an A rated sponsor. This takes time, but with ALL these things introduced by last govt you can pay extra for premium (queue jumping) service.

Registering costs...significant money.

Then when you identify a candidate you have to issue a certificate of sponsorship and have it approved....and this includes a wide range of things you need to meet and also they have to be in possession of an IELTS level 4 or better language certificate. Don't score full points in a category? (any category..all must be full marks to hit the 70 points needed) No certificate..process over.
You need to meet the specified salary thresholds. (They are NOT cheap labour despite the political expediency of some to say so, but they are available and keen...worth a lot).
Then you have to pay...up front....a skills surcharge for every 6 months they are to be here, and a health surcharge. Totals something like 1850 per12 months and is on top of them paying NI on their pay. If you hire them for 3 years then its 6 times that at day 1.
Then there are the relatively new privatised cost of getting their actual visa......its like 8 times the amount of a few years ago

So far so good? Extending 3 of them for a further 3 years cost ME around 18k...all of that on top of having to pay a wage equal to or in excess of an industry guide rate the government publishes.

So...so far so good..at least we could get some very good staff. Hired 5 this way, only 1 has fallen by the wayside and went off to do a Masters degree.

Roll on to 4th April 2024. The drive against immigration.

Minimum salary threshold raised to above what even a company boss takes around here....go bust very fast rates....and if you DID pay it you would have to up everyone else. ( Against a pattern of falling honey prices and rising costs to boot.)

But then noticed they also removed bee farmer from the eligible list...in fact category 5119, agricultural trades not elsewhere specified, which had a short list of skills that were in shortage...has had ALL the categories onshore deleted..only now covers work in fishing.

So the door has been slammed firmly closed. Those we have can stay on their pre existing terms, but no more can come, and even if they put the category back the pay rates make it impossible anyway......seems to be SE England rates that have formed the guidance and set so high to disincentivise it even there...in Scotland its fantasy money.

So..would love to take on someone like that (I presume he must have been placed elsewhere, maybe not UK).... but the drive against immigrants has killed the route off. Local youngsters tend to last days, weeks, maybe months. A string of wet 3am starts migrating to the heather mucks up their real and online social lives and they just walk.

You know what we are thinking in response to this don't you,

 

[Erichalfbee]

You know what we are thinking in response to this don't you,

The French seem to be accusing us of just this ........making the UK good place to end up.

 

[RJC]

The French seem to be accusing us of just this ........making the UK good place to end up.

That is in relation to illegal migration. ITLD's post is about legal migration. We left the EU (inter alia) to take back control and manage our borders. So now we have to incentivise workers to travel to the UK from half way across the world, as we can't recruit from our own workforce for a lot of public sector and manual jobs. And then we make it ever more difficult for them. Ergo unfilled vacancies; poorly staffed public services; fruit rotting in the fields etc. We can't have it both ways. The madness of dealing with long term structural problems with short term populist approaches. (And I suspect this thread is heading under the stairs)

 

[Into the lions den]

You know what we are thinking in response to this don't you,

No I don't, but its unlikely to be something we have not thought of or tried already. We give enthusiastic locals first chance. Just so few genuine applicants for ANY positions these days..the farms are not even harvesting a fair amount of their fruit due to not having staff. Its dire.

When we advertise...which we do...we get the usual cohort who apply every time...some of whom we have invited for interview, also multiple times..and they never turn up...with excuses as flimsy as they are worried about their cat because it sneezed last night...(seriously...got that one) or just never respond after accepting the interview and not appearing, only for them to apply again next vacancy..... The stories I could tell about unsuitable applicants....

Its somewhat upsetting in some cases that you just cannot offer jobs...beekeeping is not viably adaptable to certain things.... like wheelchair user seeking with bees in the field and the 64yo blind lady who wanted a job working bees with us......

A close friend in the trade is just off the back of hiring an apprentice and then a trainee ....lasted 2 days and two weeks respectively. First one did not like field work and wanted/expected something more 'keyboard based' and the second left as he did not like having to clean queen excluders for two whole days...finding the right people is tough these days.

Complained about them taking 'bee farmer' off the list...got the helpful response from and individual last govt that perhaps we should consider moving the company offshore to a lower cost economy with fewer restrictions. Not expecting any change from the new lot. Its electorally toxic. Its a democracy and we have to go with the things that flow from that. C'est la vie...we push on.

 

[Into the lions den]

That is in relation to illegal migration. ITLD's post is about legal migration. We left the EU (inter alia) to take back control and manage our borders. So now we have to incentivise workers to travel to the UK from half way across the world, as we can't recruit from our own workforce for a lot of public sector and manual jobs. And then we make it ever more difficult for them. Ergo unfilled vacancies; poorly staffed public services; fruit rotting in the fields etc. We can't have it both ways. The madness of dealing with long term structural problems with short term populist approaches. (And I suspect this thread is heading under the stairs)

Possibly is headed under the stairs as this is an issue that can become poisonously political very fast...but it IS the world we currently live in.
Not had a properly experienced UK applicant for over 3 years, and even people with no experience are seeking to negotiate high starting rates.
The local youngsters we try to bring on board and train (we do not use the BFA apprenticeship scheme) last a while seem, to be enjoying it...then vanish..

All this thread was about was an enthusiastic guy who wanted to come to the UK to work in bee farming or breeding. I was explaining why he probably cannot, and its sad (from where I stand...other viewpoints are fair enough) that good talent with the right attitude, who would be economically active and paying all their UK taxes are actually now not available. Not even that it is for my own business's benefit. Other bee farms are also desperate for willing flexible staff and cannot find them.

I hope he found a place. its the kind we (the collective we) need from a productive contributing worker point of view.

 

[rolande]

I hope that this thread doesn't get locked away, I got one see no reason for a bee forum to hide facts.

 

[pargyle]

Agriculture and industry in the UK is being devastated by a lack of low level labour .. Murray's experience is not isolated - a local tomato grower has had to dump tons of tomatoes because he can't recruit local labour economically to pick them .. even students are not interested in these menial jobs during their summer break ! Scotland, in particular appears to be crying out for more people to do these jobs.

As a student I used to clean furnaces out in the local steelworks in my holidays, I spent one summer on a pea farm and freezing factory pushing pea shards into a lagoon to make liquid manure - 12 hour shifts, 7 days a week. I bought my first car and had a good holiday from what I earned. I cleaned out the liquorice vats at Bassetts one summer, picked potatoes and apples amongst a host of other menial tasks. Sadly, these low level jobs seem to lack appeal to our populace and if students wont take them what chance is there of working age people taking them ?

If we cannot recruit local labour then the solution is obvious, if people want to come here, are prepared to work, have a passport and legitimate credentials from the country they have left, why we cannot give them a place in our society to live and work legally within the UK is beyond me. We would need to have some control on them - make the employers who need this labour responsible for finding or providing accommodation. Instead of the Government giving asylum seekers £49.18 a week and spending a small fortune putting them up in asylum accommodation give the people who need the labour and are prepared to employ and train them a subsidy to give them work and a living wage. Give these migrants temporary work permits and a clear track towards UK Citizenship - including language lessons and a social integration process. GIven the opportunity these migrants get one chance - work here, obey our laws, pay your dues and show that you are worth the effort - digress from the path and you are on the first plane back to wherever you started.

Stop the stupid, incredibly expensive, unworkable asylum process we have in place - the vast majority of these illegal immigrants could/would come here legally and work/live given the opportunity. I'm not suggesting they are employed as slave labour - give them dignity, a job, acommodation and ensure they are visible and initially monitored. Everyone deserves a chance and we should be able to offer a life to those seeking a legitimate life here, not taking jobs from our workforce - doing jobs that our workforce is reluctant to do.

We currently have approaching 100,000 asylum seekers already in the UK .. most of them cannot be returned to their home country for one reason or another and there is a queue in France in waiting. We are not going to solve the problem with the current system in place - it needs some blue sky thinking and I fear our politicians of all flavours have their heads firmly stuck in the sand - or worse - up their bottoms.

This may not find favour with all sectors of our population but ... those who seek an end to illegal immigration need to recognise that the problem can only be solved with legal immigration.

 

[pargyle]

I hope that this thread doesn't get locked away, I got one see no reason for a bee forum to hide facts.

As long as it does not descend into something toxic or politicised I see no reason to move it .. there is a problem and if it can be discussed reasonably here then there is no harm in it remaining public.

We might consider moving it out of the general beekeepin section to Off topic though ?

 

[Erichalfbee]

That is in relation to illegal migration

But surely there are those in this cohort who would be willing to fill these jobs given the chance? There is untapped wealth there. A decent asylum system rather than smashing gangs that aren’t even in Europe anyway?

 

[Into the lions den]

But surely there are those in this cohort who would be willing to fill these jobs given the chance? There is untapped wealth there. A decent asylum system rather than smashing gangs that aren’t even in Europe anyway?

I was approached by a Syrian asylum seeker who had worked in bee a farms for 15 years and fled his country...some of his family had been killed. Had done bees in Australia and Canada in sharp end commercial outfits. No way we could risk taking him on....£60,000 fine per illegal worker.

Been registered on the government list of potential placements for Ukrainian and Afghan refugees for some time now but have not had any inquiries.

As Pargyle said...Scotland in particular is crying out for staff and a system designed to keep people out based on the needs and perceptions of other parts of the country just don't fit here. Whilst not invariably the case, Scotland seems much more welcoming and accepting of non Brits than some other places.

 

[pargyle]

But surely there are those in this cohort who would be willing to fill these jobs given the chance? There is untapped wealth there. A decent asylum system rather than smashing gangs that aren’t even in Europe anyway?

Yes ... you would need to backdate the process. The problem is that the illegal immigrants are tutored by the people traffickers and they tell them:

1. Throw your passport away or leave it with someone you trust in France (although the majority of people traffickers insist on holding onto their 'clients' passports as a hold over them).

2. The only words of English you need are 'I wish to claim asylum' - they even provide reasons they can use.

3. Once you are settled in the asylum process we will find you work - you can work off the cost of your passage if you can't pay the full amount. (It will usually be looking after cannabis plants in a cannabis farm, making crystal meth or working in the black economy in a car wash or nail bar - for nothing apart from a scruffy bed in an overcrowded hovel and some food). They get picked up from their asylum accommodation by the criminals and they are then just classed by the Home Office as 'absconders' ... only to reappear later, claim they were the victims of trafficking and slave labour and the whole sorry process starts all over again !

The problem is that the Home Office (And the International Convention) rules on asylum require the subject's country of origin to acknowledge that the failed asylum seeker is one of their nationals - with no ID papers on them the Home office are reliant upon the country of origin to accept them as one of theirs .. without this they cannot be returned - so they stay here, unable to work as they are in the asylum process and it is not permitted.

There are many ways to use the current asylum process to just procrastinate and lets face it - if they are looking as though they are going to be returned - it's easy to disappear in the UK ! Most of these migrants are from war torn regions or areas where levels of national persecution are rife, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia etc. or where there is economic deprivation - parts of North Africa and West Africa - where there is no work. You can understand why they see the UK as the land of milk and honey by comparison to what they have.

I agree that many, many, of the 100,000 or so illegal immigrants we have in the asylum process would happily work and live here legitimately but we have a system that will not allow them to be granted asylum and leave to remain in a timely manner and a pre-disposition that we want to see them removed rather than settled here.

Until we have a working, practical, legal settlement scheme in place there will always be the people who seek to prey on them and provide illegal methods to get here. Don't smash the gangs - it will never happen - eliminate the need for illegal entry and the traffickers have no reason to exist. A legal route in needs to be accompanied by a swift and effective removal system for those who choose to abuse our hospitality in any way. Carrot and Stick ...

It's not a quick fix and it would need a whole new way of thinking by the Government and our existing population but there is a logic to it ... I doubt it will happen, we will continue to spend millions on an insurmountable problem with the misguided notion that we can 'smash the gangs' - it's almost as ridiculous as the proposition of 'send them to Rwanda'.

 

[Ely]

£27k? Same as I'm in IT. Shame they are not in East Norfolk. I bet lifting frames for 8 hours a day is murder on the upper back and shoulders though.

 

[rolande]

Agriculture and industry in the UK is being devastated by a lack of low level labour .. Murray's experience is not isolated - a local tomato grower has had to dump tons of tomatoes because he can't recruit local labour economically to pick them .. even students are not interested in these menial jobs during their summer break ! Scotland, in particular appears to be crying out for more people to do these jobs.

As a student I used to clean furnaces out in the local steelworks in my holidays, I spent one summer on a pea farm and freezing factory pushing pea shards into a lagoon to make liquid manure - 12 hour shifts, 7 days a week. I bought my first car and had a good holiday from what I earned. I cleaned out the liquorice vats at Bassetts one summer, picked potatoes and apples amongst a host of other menial tasks. Sadly, these low level jobs seem to lack appeal to our populace and if students wont take them what chance is there of working age people taking them ?

If we cannot recruit local labour then the solution is obvious, if people want to come here, are prepared to work, have a passport and legitimate credentials from the country they have left, why we cannot give them a place in our society to live and work legally within the UK is beyond me. We would need to have some control on them - make the employers who need this labour responsible for finding or providing accommodation. Instead of the Government giving asylum seekers £49.18 a week and spending a small fortune putting them up in asylum accommodation give the people who need the labour and are prepared to employ and train them a subsidy to give them work and a living wage. Give these migrants temporary work permits and a clear track towards UK Citizenship - including language lessons and a social integration process. GIven the opportunity these migrants get one chance - work here, obey our laws, pay your dues and show that you are worth the effort - digress from the path and you are on the first plane back to wherever you started.

Stop the stupid, incredibly expensive, unworkable asylum process we have in place - the vast majority of these illegal immigrants could/would come here legally and work/live given the opportunity. I'm not suggesting they are employed as slave labour - give them dignity, a job, acommodation and ensure they are visible and initially monitored. Everyone deserves a chance and we should be able to offer a life to those seeking a legitimate life here, not taking jobs from our workforce - doing jobs that our workforce is reluctant to do.

We currently have approaching 100,000 asylum seekers already in the UK .. most of them cannot be returned to their home country for one reason or another and there is a queue in France in waiting. We are not going to solve the problem with the current system in place - it needs some blue sky thinking and I fear our politicians of all flavours have their heads firmly stuck in the sand - or worse - up their bottoms.

This may not find favour with all sectors of our population but ... those who seek an end to illegal immigration need to recognise that the problem can only be solved with legal immigration.

I pretty much agree with all of this post with the exception of putting the responsibility of supplying housing on the employer, this is something which could lead to a lot of abuses of power. In my younger days I had a few jobs with 'accommodation' lucky for me that I've never had a problem telling an employer where to go but I've seen many, especially when I was travelling on the fairs, who have effectively become institutionalised within a firm. From the other perspective it would soon put yet another burden on the genuine employer.

 

[Erichalfbee]

No way we could risk taking him on....£60,000 fine per illegal worker.

No which is why it’s a crying shame that in some way all parties can’t get together to tackle this rather than seek self serving office. I know that is simplistic. Pargyle is at the sharp end and knows what’s going on. Perhaps he should replace Mrs Balls and have his own unassailable remit
Sorry for the flippancy…

 

[Into the lions den]

£27k? Same as I'm in IT. Shame they are not in East Norfolk. I bet lifting frames for 8 hours a day is murder on the upper back and shoulders though.

That was the minimum permissable rate of pay before April. It was raised to close on 39k in a single day. Add in the govt charges...additional tax really...and Employers NI, Nest pension which we operate...and it gets close to 50k a year.

 

[Into the lions den]

That was the minimum permissable rate of pay before April. It was raised to close on 39k in a single day. Add in the govt charges...additional tax really...and Employers NI, Nest pension which we operate...and it gets close to 50k a year.

Previous to that it was a gross burden of about 33k a year per person...so it went up by about 50% overnight. Does not include all the charges THEY have to pay.

 

[Into the lions den]

I pretty much agree with all of this post with the exception of putting the responsibility of supplying housing on the employer, this is something which could lead to a lot of abuses of power. In my younger days I had a few jobs with 'accommodation' lucky for me that I've never had a problem telling an employer where to go but I've seen many, especially when I was travelling on the fairs, who have effectively become institutionalised within a firm. From the other perspective it would soon put yet another burden on the genuine employer.

We have access to some ok grade caravans and also hire a flat for them.....legally we HAVE to charge a rent or it then gets heavily taxed as a benefit in kind, at prescribed rates that are eye watering (again applying SE English rates to National issues). Seasonals tend to take the caravans, multi year seasonals the flat...but almost all long term staff move into the private rented sector or buy. They rapidly become regular local based people. Pay their dues, kids go to local school, join the sports clubs, the brownies etc etc.....integrate very well. Some of our ex staff, both UK and non UK, now have their own businesses, both in bees and not.

 

[Erichalfbee]

My daughter lives in Germany and her partner is not from the EU. She wants to come home with her but they can’t jump the financial hurdles.
What does she do? It’s so sad for both of them.

 

[pargyle]

I pretty much agree with all of this post with the exception of putting the responsibility of supplying housing on the employer, this is something which could lead to a lot of abuses of power. In my younger days I had a few jobs with 'accommodation' lucky for me that I've never had a problem telling an employer where to go but I've seen many, especially when I was travelling on the fairs, who have effectively become institutionalised within a firm. From the other perspective it would soon put yet another burden on the genuine employer.

It has to be organised and inspected - I am not suggesting that every employer has to provide accommodation but if they can and like student accommodation is inspected for suitablility then I see no reason why employers should not have accommodation available - and as Murray does, make a reasonable deduction to avoid the benefit in kind tax. If not then the migrant needs to have some assistance to find suitable accommodation - imagine being offered a job in a country and an area you have never been to and trying to find somewhere to live, probably not in your first language and with the prejudice we sometimes see in the private rented sector ? There has to be some involvement from the employer and a subsidy to assist in providing such help is still going to be less expensive than the ludicrous rates we are paying (as taxpayers) providing accommodation for illegal immigrants.

Of course, I've not thought this through thoroughly but at least I've thought about how we could reasonably and practically solve the problem that mounts daily. GIven a living wage, a life in the UK , experience and a track record of good behaviour - Murray is right - many of these migrants will move on to different jobs and integration into our society. Yes, they may have families that they wish to bring here but, again, if they are allowed to come here legally and there has been a period of residence by original migrant then I don't have an issue. Many of the people coming across in small boats at present are wives and children of people who are already here illegally ... so the premise that legalising immigration makes even more sense - more so if the initial migrant can support them from their employment/

I am disappointed that all I heard from the last Government was words that sought to denigrate these poor people seeking a better life here and now from the next lot I hear the same words just said in a different way. I'm not in favour of open borders but if people can see a reasonable way to come to the UK legally and we can openly monitor and control it it has to be better than Border force picking the bodies up mid channel or Kent Police hunting down dinghies arriving on the beaches nearest to France !

We already have a customs presence in Coquelles where we check people coming to the UK via the Tunnel and Ferries and turn away undesirables ... it's not beyond our wit to expand this to a facility where migrants could present their credentials, be health checked and screened as legitimate candidates to come here and live and work on a temporary visa. Part of the process could advertise their knowledge and ability to potential employers in the UK - matching skills with jobs.

I can't see this as rocket science but a high level meeting of Government today to discuss how they are going to smash the gangs does not seem to me to be the answer.

 

[pargyle]

My daughter lives in Germany and her partner is not from the EU. She wants to come home with her but they can’t jump the financial hurdles.
What does she do? It’s so sad for both of them.

Portugal is the easiest place in the UK to gain EU nationality - and you don't have to live there 365 days a year - just demonstrate that you have a permanent residence there for 5 years and that you have spent more than 138 days per year in the country each year and you can apply to be naturalised. They even allow you to keep your existing nationality as a dual national. With a Portguese passport it's a lot easier to get in to the UK and be allowed to stay and work. Sweden also has fairly reasonable naturalisation requirements ...

At present the Spouse Visa route in to the UK costs £29,000 which is prohibitive ... but may be the cheaper option in the long run ... £29k repaid over five years from the bank of mum and dad ?