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Oxalic or no oxalic?

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keithgrimes 

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I did a month of Apiguard from mid August to mid September on two colonies and didn't get a single mite dropped. Picking up some Oxalic from the association yesterday I was advised not to use it. An experienced beekeeper told me that it would do more harm than good by chilling the hive ( I would not characterise these as strong colonies). I'm thinking I might put the varroa floor back in for three days and see if I have any mites, then potentially not treat. Opinions as ever are very welcome.:willy_nilly:
 
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Seems to be a moot point and eveyone has an opinion!
Wally Shaw's site suggests that the varroa mixture be at room or even body temp before being trickled onto the beeclump in early January, when the bees are without brood.
Shaw's recipe is 78g oxalic acid [dihydrate] in {ie added to!} a 50/50 mix of Ikg sugar and 1 litre water, 5ml carefully metered out along and between brood frames about 35ml per hive
( I recon that is about a 4.5% w:w solution of oxalic acid)

I am going to try it on my "out apiary" hives as the Apivar dropped a load of mite.
I am going to leave my garden hives as Apivar did not produce a single mite... nor could I see any varroa mite on any of the many images I took of the colonies throught the year
Taking a digi image of the frames is a good idea, as you can peruse them at your leisure on the PC without peering for disturbing ages at the little darlings!

This will bee the first of 500 replies if it does not drift off track!
good luck... hope you don't get as confused as I was!!
 
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Poly Hive 

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Never heard of Wally Shaw.. he is who and his site is where?

If necessary pm me please.

PH
 

Black Comb 

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I've never visited his site but he writes regular articles for Beecraft.
 

mbc 

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Wally regularly writes for the 'welsh beekeeper' and is based up in Mon or anglesey to the unlucky majority

Keith - if youve done your mite counts and you have very little or no varroa, then your local association advice holds good ( if your possitive the little buggers arent hiding! )
 

oliver90owner 

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I recon that is about a 4.5% w:w solution of oxalic acid

78 g in 2078g. How on earth do you make that 4.5 % w/w? I think you need to check your sums.

RAB
 
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I recon that is about a 4.5% w:w solution of oxalic acid

78 g in 2078g. How on earth do you make that 4.5 % w/w? I think you need to check your sums.

RAB
NOT MY SUMS Wallies!!

same formulation as Finnman was quoting....

7.8g of oxalic acid + 100g water +100g sugar

remember the Mole. etc .etc.
and I suffer from dysphragia.. so nothing I type can be relied upon
5 x 9 = 54 etc etc.....

But the thread was asking what do you think?
 

Hivemaker. 

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same formulation as Finnman was quoting....

7.8g of oxalic acid + 100g water +100g sugar


7.5g
 

Finman 

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What do you get when devide 7,5 / 200 = ?

3,5 / 100 = 3,5 %

4,4 /100 = 4,4%

if you are accurate, 7,5 / 207,5 = ?
 
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Skyhook 

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All very interesting, but probably not helping Keith reach a decision. For what it's worth Keith, I added the post below to the poll yesterday.

Originally Posted by Skyhook
Mine seem to be dropping about 50-70/ day now on apistan, so I think I've taken the edge off it- but I think I'm going to have to be brave and OA


Latest update- daily drops this week 6, 13, 7, 2, 0, 0, 0.

I was going to treat reluctantly, not least as my queen is now in her 3rd year and may well have had 2 treatments already. I am now thinking that the mite count must be pretty negligible so I'm now planning not to treat, but will monitor carefully in the spring.


I would think that if you are getting a drop of zero or b****r all on a STICKY BOARD (I coat mine with cooking oil) then you probably don't need to treat.
 

Skyhook 

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Just to confuse the issue, I wonder if oxalic is as useful as it's made out to be? It kills 90% of phoretic bees- but it appears that a lot of todays big fat yellow bees will keep raising a bit of brood through all but the hardest winters. If, in the summer, 85% of mites are in the brood, and (I think that's right), that means a pupa is about 6 times as likely to be hosting a mite as an adult. If you have in a winter hive 12,000 bees, 600 pupae, and 600 mites, there seems to be a case for saying that over a quarter of the mites would be in brood.

My figures are probably all to cock, but you get the principal? basically, that it won't work as well as the book says because the bees haven't read the book.
 

Poly Hive 

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And being an optimist would it not follow that most are NOT under cappings and hence vulnerable to the OA treatment.

Therefore a worth while exercise.

PH
 

Finman 

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Oxalic acid is not worth of religion. I use only OA but is seems that itis not enough.

It is practical to kill so much mits as possible that they have not time to multiply themselves to harmfull level before next autumn. The last mites concentrates to the winter bee brood and thatis the harm.

Oxalic acid has been researched carefully durig 10 years. Don't say again that Finland is different.
Trickling was invented in ITALY by Nanetti . A Finnish researcher found the idea " a dosage by seem".

oxalic is the best metdod what I have met during 23 years. 8 have neve calculated them carefully. I live 100 miles away and I have no time to calculate them. They are there.
 
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What do you get when devide 7,5 / 200 = ?

3,5 / 100 = 3,5 %

4,4 /100 = 4,4%

if you are accurate, 7,5 / 207,5 = ?

IS/OF X100 to give %

7.5 / 207.5 x 100 = 3.6%


This seems to bee within the parameters of concentration of the knowledgible cohort!

What may I ask do you do if a super of winter stores is still on the hive, temporarily lift it off whilst treatment takes place on the cluster?


Not going too far adrift from the thread I trust??
 
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Finman 

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If you have such bees which do not have brood brake in winter, so you have same difficulties like in New Zealand.

Even I can bye a bee strain which have not instinct to stop brooding, but in our winter all those hives will be deab before March. They will use a huge summ of sugar during winter. - that about a harsh winter. Unproper bees will die here even if they have no varroa.

Some guys keep Italian bees on Polar Circle.
 
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What may I ask do you do if a super of winter stores is still on the hive, temporarily lift it off whilst treatment takes place on the cluster?
Had been wondering that myself. Pretty sure I heard/read that the super shouldnt be touched as its likely to cause unesessary disruption, but interested to hear comments of the experienced guys and gals here.
 

Poly Hive 

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It has to be what is best for the colony, yes there will be some disruption, the price of having the insurance of the super of stores on, but the main aim is to treat the bees. Lesser of two evils?

PH
 
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OK I am going to use Mr.Finmans formula for OA warmed to body temp on the hives I know have Varroa, because I have seen the mites. I will have to lift the winter store supers to do it.
Should get a cold snap first week in new year so will treat in 2nd week?
The garden hives will be left alone and not treated as the Thymol treatment etc did not cause a single mite to drop, and my photos did no show any up either.

OA and syringe on order
 

johna 

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Dose the bees around Christmas when the Q is not laying,therefore no brood present and mites are on the adult bee. Just quickly take off roof , lift crownboard and trickle 5 mils per SEAM of bees.If super of stores on - hinge up on one side and treat exposed seams of bees.As these operations only take a few seconds,no harm will come to the colony.Remember there is no brood to chill.Adult bees will stand a small exposure to the cold.Its better to treat than risk a serious build up of mites when the Queen starts laying again in the spring and the mites once again are sealed in.I know the argument rages about whether to treat or not to treat but better safe than sorry when mite invasion opens the way to all the various viruses that are now prevalent ,leading to the collapse of the colony.BE RESPONSIBLE AND TREAT.
 

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