Not so super super foundation

[Spiney Norman]

Hello All. I have just bought a fair quantity of unwired super foundation. It looks rather small to me. The supplier says it is normal. What do you think?

Before I ordered it, I asked if it was already trimmed to fit an unwired frame. The supplier said that it might need a mm trimming sometimes. So I was expecting more of an interference fit.

Previously, I have generally bought sheets that are the same size as wired foundation and had to trim it down, but this seems to be taking the micky.

I'm getting rather sick of receiving rather ropey kit. I've had stainless steel excluders that rust (and the supplier refused to replace), hive tools that bend, woodenware that is supposed to be 'second quality with live knots', but is actually full of dead knots and holes where dead nots used to be, and roofs made from offcuts of Sterling board. And loads more....

Anyway, sorry to have such a negative first post and will be much sunnier on the next one.

Am I being ripped off?

(The photo is of a standard SN2 pre fitted with eyelets, but not yet wired.)

 

[enrico]

Hello All. I have just bought a fair quantity of unwired super foundation. It looks rather small to me. The supplier says it is normal. What do you think?

Before I ordered it, I asked if it was already trimmed to fit an unwired frame. The supplier said that it might need a mm trimming sometimes. So I was expecting more of an interference fit.

Previously, I have generally bought sheets that are the same size as wired foundation and had to trim it down, but this seems to be taking the micky.

I'm getting rather sick of receiving rather ropey kit. I've had stainless steel excluders that rust (and the supplier refused to replace), hive tools that bend, woodenware that is supposed to be 'second quality with live knots', but is actually full of dead knots and holes where dead nots used to be, and roofs made from offcuts of Sterling board. And loads more....

Anyway, sorry to have such a negative first post and will be much sunnier on the next one.

Am I being ripped off?

(The photo is of a standard SN2 pre fitted with eyelets, but not yet wired.)

Hi, are you in the UK and are you buying from a UK supplier? if so then that is not acceptable at all. In fact it is so bad I could almost believe your post is a wind up, giving you the benefit of the doubt you need to find a new supplier, also your name is very like another regular poster on here. Any chance you can change it

 

[Erichalfbee]

f the doubt you need to find a new supplier, also your name is very like another regular poster on here. Any chance you can change it

@Eric The Halfabee
I think you should.
PM me an alternative name and I’ll change it for you

 

[Wilco]

Hello All. I have just bought a fair quantity of unwired super foundation. It looks rather small to me. The supplier says it is normal. What do you think?

Before I ordered it, I asked if it was already trimmed to fit an unwired frame. The supplier said that it might need a mm trimming sometimes. So I was expecting more of an interference fit.

Previously, I have generally bought sheets that are the same size as wired foundation and had to trim it down, but this seems to be taking the micky.

I'm getting rather sick of receiving rather ropey kit. I've had stainless steel excluders that rust (and the supplier refused to replace), hive tools that bend, woodenware that is supposed to be 'second quality with live knots', but is actually full of dead knots and holes where dead nots used to be, and roofs made from offcuts of Sterling board. And loads more....

Anyway, sorry to have such a negative first post and will be much sunnier on the next one.

Am I being ripped off?

(The photo is of a standard SN2 pre fitted with eyelets, but not yet wired.)

Looks like other unwired foundation for wired frames I've seen.

Different to cut comb foundation though.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Looks like other unwired foundation for wired frames I've seen.

the foundation doesn't have to go to the edge of the frame to 'work' in fact it works better if it doesn't, obviously the supplier gotconfused and though you wanted foundation for wired frames not just unwired foundation.

 

[enrico]

Looks like other unwired foundation for wired frames I've seen.

Different to cut comb foundation though.

Oh I see, thanks, never seen it like that because I have never needed it. Still learning!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Oh I see, thanks, never seen it like that because I have never needed it. Still learning!

if you buy pre waxed frames from Denrosa, that's what you get, the gap at the sides ensures the foundation doesn't warp or wrinkle when it expands in the heat of the hive.
As usual, we Brits are the only lot in the world who use prewired foundation, double bottom bars, side grooves and top 'wedges' - and pay a premium price for the 'pleasure''

 

[enrico]

if you buy pre waxed frames from Denrosa, that's what you get, the gap at the sides ensures the foundation doesn't warp or wrinkle when it expands in the heat of the hive.
As usual, we Brits are the only lot in the world who use prewired foundation, double bottom bars, side grooves and top 'wedges' - and pay a premium price for the 'pleasure''

Never knew that, thanks

 

[enrico]

After a steep learning curve on my part I apologise to the new member who started the post. You apparently got what you asked for. As far as other poor quality kit goes through I would change supplier.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

After a steep learning curve on my part I apologise to the new member who started the post. You apparently got what you asked for. As far as other poor quality kit goes through I would change supplier.

or it could have been just a misunderstanding (misheard unwired/prewired frames) and the wrong product was dispatched

Am I being ripped off?

before going any further, I would contact the supplier and have a chat - it may have been a genuine misunderstanding, and it would only cost a phonecall.

 

[Sutty]

Hello All. I have just bought a fair quantity of unwired super foundation. It looks rather small to me. The supplier says it is normal. What do you think?

Before I ordered it, I asked if it was already trimmed to fit an unwired frame. The supplier said that it might need a mm trimming sometimes. So I was expecting more of an interference fit.

Previously, I have generally bought sheets that are the same size as wired foundation and had to trim it down, but this seems to be taking the micky.

I'm getting rather sick of receiving rather ropey kit. I've had stainless steel excluders that rust (and the supplier refused to replace), hive tools that bend, woodenware that is supposed to be 'second quality with live knots', but is actually full of dead knots and holes where dead nots used to be, and roofs made from offcuts of Sterling board. And loads more....

Anyway, sorry to have such a negative first post and will be much sunnier on the next one.

Am I being ripped off?

(The photo is of a standard SN2 pre fitted with eyelets, but not yet wired.)

Another vote for a change of name, sadly someone got there first!
Welcome to the forum though!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Another vote for a change of name, sadly someone got there first!
Welcome to the forum though!

Sadly?

 

[Spiney Norman]

@Eric The Halfabee
I think you should.
PM me an alternative name and I’ll change it for you

Sorry Erichalfbee, I'll try and think of something else... Ernie the quarterbee?

@Eric The Halfabee
I think you should.
PM me an alternative name and I’ll change it for you

 

[Sutty]

Sadly?

All depends on point of view!

 

[JamezF]

Sorry Erichalfbee, I'll try and think of something else... Ernie the quarterbee?

Adrian Wapcaplet?

James

 

[Spiney Norman]

Thanks for the replies so far.

I've used wired frames in the brood box for several years, but wired foundation in supers. I've decided to start using wired frames in the supers this year. So it is a new move for me.

Going by how the bees like to chew gaps between the side bars and the comb, and also the bottom bars and the comb, are they not inclined to leave a gap when you give them this gap to start with?

If not, then great. I'll look forward to the bees creating beautiful, even combs.

I still think a half inch gap for thermal expansion is a bit large though. I've never had a problem of thermal expansion on the full sized 14x12 foundation that I have trimmed to fit brood frames.

Anyway, if there are beekeepers here with experience of using such small foundation with no problems that would be good to know.

Do most people just use wired foundation in their super frames?

 

[Spiney Norman]

Adrian Wapcaplet?

James

I still have a box of 'Emperor Stringets' somewhere. They really are super absorbent.

wait

or was it water repellent?

I like Wapcaplet

but maybe Spiney Norman more. Is there a Spiney Norman already?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I still think a half inch gap for thermal expansion is a bit large though.

it's only a quarter of an inch each side if you centre them.
As you have observed, the bees often chew away the foundation leaving a quarter inch (more sometimes) gap between the comb and the frame - so why spend money on something they waste?
If you have changed to wired frames, you don't need side grooves or top wedge, you just lay the frame on a flat surface, rest the foundation on top of the wires, then connect the wire to a car battery (or car battery charger) for a few seconds and the current passing through the wire will heat it and fix the wax to the wire

 

[robmort]

Simpler to not use any foundation, nor wired super frames, and just as good.

 

[Spiney Norman]

it's only a quarter of an inch each side if you centre them.
As you have observed, the bees often chew away the foundation leaving a quarter inch (more sometimes) gap between the comb and the frame - so why spend money on something they waste?
If you have changed to wired frames, you don't need side grooves or top wedge, you just lay the frame on a flat surface, rest the foundation on top of the wires, then connect the wire to a car battery (or car battery charger) for a few seconds and the current passing through the wire will heat it and fix the wax to the wire

Thanks for your reply, and I take most of your points.

But disagree on not needing the top wedge. Although I don't generally use them myself, I have made up nucs in the past using horizontally wired Langstroth medium frames that did not have a wedge. In warm weather I have found gravity can cause the foundation to flop a bit at the top without the support of being clamped underneath a wedge.

Even if there is not a dramatic flop, the comb is no longer centred on the underside of the top bar. Using a frame with a top bar wedge accurately aligns the comb to the centre of the top bar.

If the wires are vertical it doesn't matter. However, I have only ever seen and bought SN frames that come with eyelets with horizontal wires.

I am familiar with wired frames. For several years, I have been using wired 14 x 12 brood frames. I find them much less subject to distortion than wired foundation on such a large frame. It is much less of an issue on BS deeps (at only 8 1/2" tall if I remember rightly).

I am actually thinking of experimenting with Layens frames in a colony this year (if I can find the time). About 18" tall? They will need a lot of wiring.

As an aside, I find a plug-in transformer for domestic downlights ideal for embedding the wire. But cannot recommend it as I am not a qualified electrician and it is not designed for this purpose and I assume there might be several different types that might not be suitable. ... just saying though.