Mixing oxalic & syrup

[Finman]

.
never seen so funny things. I have studies in Universtity biochemisrty 5 years and know much more these things than you do.
I really know sometring.

A new term: Concensus percent! I have seen those....30+ 60% =90%. On average 45%

 

[Finman]

PH, there is pretty much a consensus as MandF said.

- concentrations of oxalic are usually given in weight/volume terms
- the 4.5% OA dihydrate (aka 3.2% anhydrous equivalent) is commonly used
- the 3.5% variant has been recommended too and worth thinking about (I'm using it this afternoon)
- the 6% in 30% syrup on offer is a poor choice
.

Gavin, are you able to show that some one else before has used same calculations or recipes as you?

 

[Finman]

I have teached in several forums how to use trickling. This is from Finnish forum
http://bee.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1136437131


These are days when I wrote on Beesourceforum 6 years ago too

Trickling of varroa
05.01.06 at 06:58:51 Cure is given before winter when brood is away and bees are in winter ball. +5 - +10C (41-50F) is good temperature. Bees may fly back to hive at this temperature but even colder is good.

Brood area contains mites. It it best to destroy them if it is small. If bees do not fly and you put frame out, birds will pick brood from frame. If you leave brood you may have hundreds of mites there.

Get a vaccination syringe from drugstore so you see ecaxtly needed measure to spray.

You may put paper on bottom boad before handling. You will se how much you get mites when you take it away.

Recipe:

Take 7,5 gr oxalic acetic powder and put it into 0,1 liter warm water.
Take 100 gr sugar and dilute it in the solution.

(Euro coin is just 7,5 g. You can weight your coin and you can use as weight. Own balance is easy to do. Our coin weights are in internet. There are cheap digital kitchen balances in stores which have 1 g accuracy. )

This 160 ml volume is enough for 3-5 hives, depending of the amount of bees .

Give droplets together 4 ml solution in one gap of frames, which is full of bees from edge to edge.

Do not give for one box hive more than 40 ml, and this only for hive which is totally full of bees.

Do not give for 2 box hive more than 50 ml.


DON'T GIVE TWICE HANDLING. It is harmfull.

Sweden: http://www.algonet.se/~beeman/research/oxalic/oxalic-0-nf.htm

IT TAKES ABOUT 2 WEEKS BEFORE YOU SE FINAL RESULT. HALF OF MITES HAVE DROP AFTEN 7 DAYS.

.
Finnish beekeeping specialist Ari Seppälä calculated from Finnish
varroa trickling research following lag time :

After
cure ---- rate of all falled
1 week ---- 54 %
2 week ---- 20 %
3 week -----13 %
4 week ------8 %
5 week ------5 %

A finnish researcher Seppo Korpela has calculated during many years mites' drop

year 2000 altogether 34468 falled mites

1-2 weeks 96%
3-4. weeks 2,4 %

v. 2004 ... 10730 mites:

1-2 weeks 98 %
3-4 weeks 2 %

Y 2005.... 12270 mites

1-2 weeks 96 %
3-4 weeks 4 %

 

[boca]

PH, there is pretty much a consensus as MandF said.

- concentrations of oxalic are usually given in weight/volume terms
- the 4.5% OA dihydrate (aka 3.2% anhydrous equivalent) is commonly used
- the 3.5% variant has been recommended too and worth thinking about (I'm using it this afternoon)
- the 6% in 30% syrup on offer is a poor choice

Susbees and myself have been discussing the details of what you need to do to convert the 6% to 4.5% if anyone is ready for that. It is a complex problem to solve completely accurately but we reckon that we're there within a few ml.

Finman remains on his own planet where concentrations have to be in weight/weight, advice can be given to use 24 mg, everyone who tries to help is castigated and accused of making up their own recipe, and he can make up his own nonsensical recipe. Go figure. 100% consensus will never happen. You have to go with those you think you can trust.

 

[susbees]

Finman, you may be a six star general on the Finnish forum but all that ink you've linked to does is underline what we've been saying all along (those of us who no longer advertise our biochem/chem/pharmacology/knitting degrees of long ago ):

75g oxalic acid dihydrate crystals: 1000 ml water: 1000g sugar or for those with fewer colonies and accurate gramme scales

7.5g:100ml:100g

As for pointing to an article that recommends treating in Oct/Nov, the majority here are in the UK and treat late Dec/early Jan.

It's quite obvious that a sticky is needed with correct, simple figures and no calcs so we don't have to replay this lot next winter.

 

[Finman]

.
All these have been said in DEFRA letters several years ago (6-7) , but these guys who now are so wise, said that it is against The English Law.

Then I was first to say in forum: buy a digital balance of your own and measure youself. Because these accurate guys said that ordinary man cannot measure these things. I know that they had ruined their eyes with microscope.

now these fumigator guys are going to treat hives at one week interwall.

for them I tell that mite dropping lasts 4 weeks. Look CUShMAN PAGES before you do stupid things. Then it is February and brood in the hive.


(too wise guys these 2 hive owners. when you know few, you know all)

.

 

[Finman]

75g oxalic acid dihydrate crystals: 1000 ml water: 1000g sugar or for those with fewer colonies and accurate gramme scales7.5g:100ml:100g

.

I even showed several years ago how and where to bye a digital scale for those who had nothing

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Digital-Balance-Scale-0-1g-1000g/dp/B003C2QM4Q[/ame]

0.1g to 1000g 1kg Mini Electronic Digital Weight Balance Pocket Scale
by BV & Jo

Price: £9.99 & this item Delivered FREE in the UK with Super

*******

Proxima 0.01g to 200g Super Mini Digital Scale / Accuracy Electronic Price: £8.98
Sale: £4.98 Deal Price:
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**************

By the way.... I was in China Center and there was sheap digital balances. I weighed coins with those balances and they were not accurate at all. With 7,5 g coin error was even 2 g.

 

[Hivemaker.]

It's quite obvious that a sticky is needed with correct, simple figures and no calcs so we don't have to replay this lot next winter.

We already have one,since 2008,another may confuse the issue even more.

 

[MJBee]

I even showed several years ago how and where to bye a digital scale for those who had nothing

http://www.amazon.com/Electronic-Digital-Balance-Scale-0-1g-1000g/dp/B003C2QM4Q

0.1g to 1000g 1kg Mini Electronic Digital Weight Balance Pocket Scale
by BV & Jo

Price: £9.99 & this item Delivered FREE in the UK with Super

*******

Proxima 0.01g to 200g Super Mini Digital Scale / Accuracy Electronic Price: £8.98
Sale: £4.98 Deal Price:
You Save: £4.00 (45%)


**************

By the way.... I was in China Center and there was sheap digital balances. I weighed coins with those balances and they were not accurate at all. With 7,5 g coin error was even 2 g.

Best thing I ever bought. Used for Thymol emulsified syrup, Apiguard doses from bulk tub, as well as making up OA.

 

[Hivemaker.]

DON'T GIVE TWICE HANDLING. It is harmfull.

I said not to treat more than once before, and you produced this research paper,four doses and using 4.2%.

2007 Sep 1;148(2):174-8. Epub 2007 Jul 10.
Efficacy of repeated trickle applications of oxalic acid in syrup for varroosis control in Apis mellifera: influence of meteorological conditions and presence of brood.
Bacandritsos N, Papanastasiou I, Saitanis C, Nanetti A, Roinioti E.
Source

Institute of Veterinary Research of Athens, National Agricultural Research Foundation, Neapoleos 25, Agia Paraskevi 153 10, Greece. [email protected]
Abstract

Oxalic acid field trails for the control of varroosis (Varroa destructor) were carried out in an apiary located on the Mt. Imittos (Attica, Greece). The colonies received four successive applications (approximately one every 16 days) with 4.2% oxalic acid (OA) and 60% sugar solution by trickling method with two alternative types of syringes (an automatic self-filling dosing and a single-use) from the broodright to broodless period. The results indicate that the first three applications (from 6th October to 25th November-broodright period) resulted in 65.3% cumulative mite mortality, while only the last application (after the 26th November-broodless period) resulted in 77.3% mite mortality. Very low outern temperatures reduce to the minimum the bee movability, which may result into a slower development of the OA efficacy. No poor colony growth or queen loss were observed even if the bee colonies were received the four successive OA applications with the last one taken place at a very low outern temperature (6.2 degrees C). The trickling method using an automatic-filling syringe seems to be a very quick way for applying oxalic acid in large apiaries (approximately 150hives/h).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17624673

 

[Finman]

.
Yes, Hivemaker. I edited last that my text 6.1. 2006.
it is 6 years ago. It was knowledge and recommendation then.

After that during last 3 spring our varroa expert Seppo Korpela has treated in the hives again and he had not found proplems.



I have not done a single calculations or researchs about mites. I have just tried to copy knowledge which we can trust on.

And calculations. They have allways been ready to use. No need to make own.

 

[MandF]

Consensus = EVERYONE here saying that 75g OA crystals + 1000g sugar + 1000g water is good for creating an OA trickle solution for winter application in the UK.

Is anyone saying the above recipe/formula is not correct?

Also that being a couple of grams out on any item is not going to matter (or tenths of a gram if using 7.5/100/100g?

 

[Finman]

.
Who is our varroa expert Seppo Korpela

Started beekeeping at the age of 14
Studied beekeeping in Californian university
Beekeeping reseacher the whole life, just now retired
a boy born in a farmhouse and still run his own farm house with wife.
100 own beehives.
Connections to European reseach centres (Coloss project now)

Yes, practical guy with huge knowledge and common sense.

**************

He has been a valuable connection between European knowledge and a Finnish beekeeping.
We have trusted on his calculations and we have not needed self made calcuations.

Of course, beekeepeers are full of "Last Mohicans", more than one tribe alltogether. Luckily they are not able to make youtube videos. Some do.

.

 

[Finman]

Consensus = EVERYONE here saying that 75g OA crystals + 1000g sugar + 1000g water is good for creating an OA trickle solution for winter application in the UK.

Is anyone saying the above recipe/formula is not correct?

?

It is a result of 10 years intensive researching. It is not "somebody says or like question". And at least not consensus.

From own head taken variations are tens and we have not seen them all yet.

.

 

[MandF]

It is a result of 10 years intensive researching. It is not "somebody says or like question". And at least not consensus.

From own head taken variations are tens and we have not seen them all yet.

.

I am not saying there arent variations, or any one person invented the formula on the spot.

What I am saying, and correct me if I am wrong, is that EVERYONE agrees (at this point in time) that this formula will work and will not harm the colony (ie it isnt too strong)?

 

[Hivemaker.]

What I am saying, and correct me if I am wrong, is that EVERYONE agrees (at this point in time) that this formula will work and will not harm the colony (ie it isnt too strong)?

No not EVERYONE, i don't agree.

 

[RoofTops]

MandF - the measurements you gave are those held by most people and researchers to be correct for treating varroa in the UK and other bits of northern europe. However, there are people who use different methods for apply OA - such as vapourizing or do not use it at all - as I think Hivemaker does (not). There are also those who do not treat at all or who monitor mite fall and treat if they think it is necessary. There is little in beekeeping which is universal but OA syrup trickling in the strengths given is now very widely practiced.

Trickling OA syrup has been shown to kill some bees but the research I have read and the experience of beekeepers I know is that the loss of bees in mid-winter is not fatal and a colony coming out of winter with a low varroa load but minus a few bees is in a much better state than the colony left with a higher varroa load.

 

[Finman]

.
I know several professional beekeepers who do not accept oxalic acid.
Hobbyist are more who do not want to use it.


Me? -I do not like thymol. It stinks after 6 months.

A consensus among beekeepers - ridiculous idea! This is not any more fun!

 

[Ruary]

Consensus = EVERYONE here saying that 75g OA crystals + 1000g sugar + 1000g water is good for creating an OA trickle solution for winter application in the UK.

Is anyone saying the above recipe/formula is not correct?

Also that being a couple of grams out on any item is not going to matter (or tenths of a gram if using 7.5/100/100g?

Will you read the paper???

They are recommending a weaker solution because it is just as efficient at killing mites and has less potential to damage bees.

 

[Finman]

Will you read the paper???

They are recommending a weaker solution because it is just as efficient at killing mites and has less potential to damage bees.

So it is
Canada accepted year 2011 new recommencations for bee diseases.
The receipt of trickling is the same what Switzerland have used

http://manitobabee.org/hive/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/2011_recs_Feb15_final1.pdf

Oxalic acid:

There are two oxalic acid application methods for varroa control: Syrup Solution and Fumigation Method (see below). Apply either oxalic acid method during broodless periods in spring or fall. The oxalic acid treatment will NOT control varroa mites in capped brood.
1. Syrup Solution Method:
Preparation:
 Prepare 50% sugar syrup (ex: 1 kg of sugar in 1L of water).
 Add 35 g of oxalic acid dihydrate crystals to every 1L of sugar syrup. Stir the solution very well. The crystals dissolve best if the sugar solution is warm. All of the crystals must be dissolved.
 Make the solution within days of treating the colonies and keep refrigerated until use.
NOTE: 1L oxalic acid solution will treat 20 colonies (calculate: 1000mL / 50mL per colony)
Do not store leftover oxalic acid treatment solution. The oxalic acid changes in composition and becomes toxic to the bees. The crystalline powder should be stored at room temperature in an airtight container. This will prevent absorption of moisture, which causes the powder to solidify. Oxalic acid is odourless in all forms.
Application:
This is a single application treatment. With a syringe (ex: 60 CC) or an applicator (ex: drench gun), trickle 5 ml of this solution directly onto the bees in each occupied bee space (i.e. between frames) in each brood box. The maximum dose is 50 ml (i.e. 50 CC) solution per colony whether bees are in nucs, single, or multiple brood chambers. When treating doubles, split the boxes and treat the bees in both boxes (25 ml in the bottom box and 25 ml in the top box).