Man made v natural breeding and selection

[Mint Bee]

Attaboy. And in both cases we are now at the stage of having resistance. However in the case of bees systematic medication is preventing the development of immunity.

The beekeeping world is like New Zealand but without a vaccine. If NZ hadn't been able to vaccinate to gain resistance in its population it would still be stuck with closed borders. Just as the beekeeping world is stuck with medication.

Brazil and other poor countries have been through 'live and let die'. They had high casualty rates but now have full-on resistance.

The analogy is far from perfect, but its in the ball park.

I would say rabbits and mixomatosis works better. The disease was introduced (mite arrival), killed most of the population, but those that survived had resistance, and from them populations rebuilt quickly. That was plain live and let die.

What happened then was that new strains of mixomatosis were developed (by humans) and the rabbits were back to square one. They overcame the new strain in just a few years, and the whole business was repeated - and that goes on to this day.

A few years ago there was a new frog virus in the UK that decimated the population. Most frogs died, those that survived rebuilt the population.

This has happened for as long as life itself. We mammals have evolved highly complex immune systems to cope. And bees have evolved a wide range of, mostly behavioural, defences.

All this was completed predictable the day varroa arrived. We had three choices:
1) live and let die

2) conduct a carefully slowed live and let die process,

3) screw all that, medicate, be prepared to do it indefinitely, understand that will inhibit natural selection from developing resistant populations, hope for a bred superbee.

We went for 3. With no little help from multinational corporations and their supply chains, who were all very happy with the prospect, and developed and promoted a narrative that suits them.

Sadly there is no superbee - that was always a pipedream.

But we know enough now, and have the co-evolved bee-mite combinations to do things differently.

Most commercials producers will never do it. With their eyes firmly fixed on their bottom lines, they'll go on promoting the pharma narrative. Bee equipment suppliers will go on helping with that.

Beekeepers will go on believing the rubbish about it taking 2000 years to evolve resistance, that precious strains must be maintained at all cost, that by medicating the beekeeper is actually saving us all from starvation.

That's about where we are.

Is beekeeping your sole source of income with the 100 or 60 hives you keep?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Attaboy. And in both cases we are now at the stage of having resistance.

What absolute nonsense

 

[Newbeeneil]

Go to the top of the page under the ads. There’s tab that says unwatch. Click on that

Ah, I take it you mean watch and you can make a choice to get notifications.
I use the New Posts to review posts and I would like to be able to turn off threads I'm not interested in. I assume that's not possible?

 

[user 20297]

Ah, I take it you mean watch and you can make a choice to get notifications.
I use the New Posts to review posts and I would like to be able to turn off threads I'm not interested in. I assume that's not possible?

I don't look at threads I'm not interested in; but then sometimes I do, and often I find them interesting.

 

[Newbeeneil]

It's "To keep one amused" that bugs me! And it's gonna keep going with several posts daily.........

 

[mbc]

I'm not saying you don't have a point/are wrong (still mulling it over, particularly the concept of varroa becoming host adapted... Intriguing), but I am challenging the suitability of your metaphors.

I thought the investigation into the Ron Hoskins Swindon bees had already revealed it was the strains of dwv that allowed his bees to survive with varroa, I believe Lleyn peninsula bees are similarly protected and the beekeepers up there (within sight from where I am on a clear day across the bay) largely get away without treating. Unfortunately I've tried and my bees don't.
I'm with you in seeing some merit to Beesnaturally's approach but I can't get along with the bombastic delivery so to keep from appearing to round on the fellow, I'm out.

 

[Murox]

I thought the investigation into the Ron Hoskins Swindon bees had already revealed it was the strains of dwv that allowed his bees to survive with varroa, I believe Lleyn peninsula bees are similarly protected and the beekeepers up there (within sight from where I am on a clear day across the bay) largely get away without treating. Unfortunately I've tried and my bees don't.
I'm with you in seeing some merit to Beesnaturally's approach but I can't get along with the bombastic delivery so to keep from appearing to round on the fellow, I'm out.

I came to a similar conclusion - best not to engage further with a vain egomaniac – the more responses this person recieved the more turgid her/his use of language became I thought.

 

[pargyle]

I find the concept of bees and mites reaching a state of equilibrium an interesting one. Certainly, in my TF colonies there are always some varroa present but it's never an excessive amount - when there have been spikes in numbers they have rapidly returned to a low level. Do the bees manage the load or do the mites control their reproduction to prevent damage to the host colony ? I don't know but it's an interesting question.

How much damage the mites do to their host is also an interesting debate .. Yes, the mites will seriously damage the larvae in the cells where they reproduce .. but, as they prefer drone cells, does this have more impact on the drone population in the colony than the workers and consequently the colony as a whole is less affected ?

My colonies have free reign in the amount of drones they produce and I always see quite large percentages of drone comb .. do the bees compensate for the loss of some drone larvae by increasing the number of drone cells ?

There is evidence that high temperature/high humidity restricts the ability of varroa to reproduce; I've also noticed that in my highly insulated poly hives that the bees reproduction cycle is often one or even two days shorter than the established cycle. Do these two factors also hve an effect on the varroa's ability to thrive in my colonies ? Another question that is impossible to answer.

I also think that local conditions must play a significant part in varroa levels. The forage in my location (basically a mix of urban gardens, allotments, trees, fields, parks, railway banking) is a long season and I don't think the bees forage on a wide ranging area in order to secure season round forage - if they forage in a confined, but productive, area they may not have the opportunity to interact with other bees and become reinfested with fresh phoretic mites.

Similarly, I think that the biggest threat from varroa infestation comes from the diseases they vector - if the incidence of DWV etc, in the vicinity is low then this threat will also reduce. I don't ever see any significant levels of brood diseases in my colonies so the only threat they face is the damage the mites do in feeding off their hosts. Perhaps, with the high levels of drones in the colonies this damage is more prevalent in the drone population rather than the workers ?

There are probably other factors that influence the prevalence of varroa in a colony, local climate, being foundationless, variety of forage and of course, the bees themselves ... in a species that is managed but effectively wild it is virtually impossible to test what are the prime factors that allow some bees to maintain a balanced relationship with varroa. I would like to think I would worry about it but I don't .. it works for me and I'm grateful.

I am about to relocate two colonies from another beekeeper to my apiary, these colonies have a disastrous history of varroa loads and did not respond well to lots of treatment last year. What I intend doing is moving the colonies into my hives, treating them to ensure the mite load is low before they start living the dream in my apiary. It will be interesting to see if a couple of colonies with a really bad history of varroa continue to have a problem with varroa or whether they reflect the other colonies that I keep ...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I thought the investigation into the Ron Hoskins Swindon bees had already revealed it was the strains of dwv that allowed his bees to survive with varroa

I think that was more or less what Steve Martin concluded although he said his investigations were much hampered by poor/incomplete/non existent historical records of the colonies.

 

[mbc]

I find the concept of bees and mites reaching a state of equilibrium an interesting one. Certainly, in my TF colonies there are always some varroa present but it's never an excessive amount - when there have been spikes in numbers they have rapidly returned to a low level. Do the bees manage the load or do the mites control their reproduction to prevent damage to the host colony ? I don't know but it's an interesting question.

How much damage the mites do to their host is also an interesting debate .. Yes, the mites will seriously damage the larvae in the cells where they reproduce .. but, as they prefer drone cells, does this have more impact on the drone population in the colony than the workers and consequently the colony as a whole is less affected ?

My colonies have free reign in the amount of drones they produce and I always see quite large percentages of drone comb .. do the bees compensate for the loss of some drone larvae by increasing the number of drone cells ?

There is evidence that high temperature/high humidity restricts the ability of varroa to reproduce; I've also noticed that in my highly insulated poly hives that the bees reproduction cycle is often one or even two days shorter than the established cycle. Do these two factors also hve an effect on the varroa's ability to thrive in my colonies ? Another question that is impossible to answer.

I also think that local conditions must play a significant part in varroa levels. The forage in my location (basically a mix of urban gardens, allotments, trees, fields, parks, railway banking) is a long season and I don't think the bees forage on a wide ranging area in order to secure season round forage - if they forage in a confined, but productive, area they may not have the opportunity to interact with other bees and become reinfested with fresh phoretic mites.

Similarly, I think that the biggest threat from varroa infestation comes from the diseases they vector - if the incidence of DWV etc, in the vicinity is low then this threat will also reduce. I don't ever see any significant levels of brood diseases in my colonies so the only threat they face is the damage the mites do in feeding off their hosts. Perhaps, with the high levels of drones in the colonies this damage is more prevalent in the drone population rather than the workers ?

There are probably other factors that influence the prevalence of varroa in a colony, local climate, being foundationless, variety of forage and of course, the bees themselves ... in a species that is managed but effectively wild it is virtually impossible to test what are the prime factors that allow some bees to maintain a balanced relationship with varroa. I would like to think I would worry about it but I don't .. it works for me and I'm grateful.

I am about to relocate two colonies from another beekeeper to my apiary, these colonies have a disastrous history of varroa loads and did not respond well to lots of treatment last year. What I intend doing is moving the colonies into my hives, treating them to ensure the mite load is low before they start living the dream in my apiary. It will be interesting to see if a couple of colonies with a really bad history of varroa continue to have a problem with varroa or whether they reflect the other colonies that I keep ...

Are you not concerned that introducing these colonies into your apiary might upset the treatment free utopia you've managed to maintain so far?

 

[pargyle]

Are you not concerned that introducing these colonies into your apiary might upset the treatment free utopia you've managed to maintain so far?

Yes ... but as an experiment it's a risk I'm prepared to take ... You know I'm not averse to treatment per se ... these two may be colonies that HAVE to be treated and there is a risk to my existing colonies if they turn out to be varroa magnets ... but, what's the worst that could happen ? My existing bees have to cope with a bigger incidence of varroa in the vicinity ?

What if these two new colonies fit right in and after iniitial treatment start living the dream ? Is that not worth the risk ?

There's more that can be done ... if they turn out to be varroa magnets I can change the queens and see if that helps .. another couple of your queens perhaps .... the colonies I have headed up by your queens are doing exceedingly well for me and are not treated ...

 

[Ian123]

Brazil and other poor countries have been through 'live and let die'. They had high casualty rates but now have full



Most commercials producers will never do it. With their eyes firmly fixed on their bottom lines, they'll go on promoting the pharma narrative. Bee equipment suppliers will go on helping with that.

Firstly your comments regarding Brazil clearly show YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT……….I also have to ask, why do a disproportionate amount of those who discover varroa tolerant bees appear to be conspiracy theorists with a hate for big pharma and commercial beekeepers. Time for foil hats and a decent alien probing I think!

 

[mbc]

Yes ... but as an experiment it's a risk I'm prepared to take ... You know I'm not averse to treatment per se ... these two may be colonies that HAVE to be treated and there is a risk to my existing colonies if they turn out to be varroa magnets ... but, what's the worst that could happen ? My existing bees have to cope with a bigger incidence of varroa in the vicinity ?

What if these two new colonies fit right in and after iniitial treatment start living the dream ? Is that not worth the risk ?

There's more that can be done ... if they turn out to be varroa magnets I can change the queens and see if that helps .. another couple of your queens perhaps .... the colonies I have headed up by your queens are doing exceedingly well for me and are not treated ...

Good to hear, thanks.
Keep us posted on the incomers to your apiary.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi Dani Ive just scrolled up and there's a watch button but not an unwatch (unless I need another visit to the opticians). It's not a button I've ever found need to use so I tried clicking it in case it toggled on/off but it doesn't seem to on my tablet. In the short term I've set an ignore on another "contributor" so he's joined a very short list.

Maybe that’s all you can do.
I skim every post just to make sure nobody is being rude etc.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Rabbits and myxomatosis... Not really. Again, caution comparing viruses and parasites. With rabbits, they get infected, many die, those that are left have immunity so aren't reinfected and the virus starts to die out as R number drops. New generations occur and have not been exposed so have no immunity, population density increases to the point R number goes up, virus spreads again and wipes out a lot of the population. And so it cycles.

That’s what I understood. It’s all about population density and lack of immunity as that population builds up

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

That’s what I understood. It’s all about population density and lack of immunity as that population builds up

True, seen it loads of times here - the boom and bust cycles in the rabbit population, whenever we get a year of flushing rabbits from every tussock, we soon, especially after a bit of bad weather when they are confined to barracks, come across myxi infected corpses

 

[Arfermo]

Maybe that’s all you can do.
I skim every post just to make sure nobody is being rude etc.

So your first response about an 'unwatch button' was wrong? Not too helpful frankly. I have only one ignore and don't want to do more if I can avoid it - but an 'unwatch button' would be more useful for the odd occasion imho.

 

[Sanntos]

..
The beekeeping world is like New Zealand but without a vaccine. If NZ hadn't been able to vaccinate to gain resistance in its population it would still be stuck with closed borders. Just as the beekeeping world is stuck with medication.

Brazil and other poor countries have been through 'live and let die'. They had high casualty rates but now have full-on resistance.
..

First:
New Zealand, with a decisive leader in this virus crisis, has now 60 dead, Sweden, a comparable country in size and development, has over 16 000 deaths.

Second:
Brazil, with Bolsonaro, who refused to understand the nature of the "flu" as he always call it, has half a million, that is 500 000 people, dead from the "flu"

Every equation has to include these costs, otherwise it's flawed.

 

[mbc]

True, seen it loads of times here - the boom and bust cycles in the rabbit population, whenever we get a year of flushing rabbits from every tussock, we soon, especially after a bit of bad weather when they are confined to barracks, come across myxi infected corpses

No no no, the men in white coats have come up with a new strain each time

 

[Erichalfbee]

So your first response about an 'unwatch button' was wrong? Not too helpful frankly. I have only one ignore and don't want to do more if I can avoid it - but an 'unwatch button' would be more useful for the odd occasion imho.

Yes sorry. I seem to have all threads on watch as a moderator so can unwatch them
All you need to do is not read the thread. Surely if it comes up in your notifications you can just ignore it?