Man made v natural breeding and selection

[mbc]

I've now drifted back to a more subtle - some will say lax approach.

This lax approach I'm guessing is continually monitored and reviewed (with options in the mental armoury ready to save struggling bees)and is attained with hard won experience, crucially you'd not advocate this lax approach to all and sundry without thoughtful caveats.
I'm pretty much in the same boat.

 

[user 20297]

A few of questions…

My understanding of feral colonies was that they swarm more often therefore resulting in lower mite loads due to brood breaks(?), not necessarily due to evolving into mite resistant bees.

Secondly, is it not the case that bees can live treatment free for a couple of years before often succumbing to viral loads as a result of varroa(?)

Thirdly, how long does an evolutionary process like this usually take? (Any scientists know on here?)

I think it is important that there are (scientific, knowledgeable) beekeepers who are willing to trial breeding bees for varroa resistance but as a small scale beekeeper, i’d rather keep my bees (livestock) alive by treating them for a parasite known to kill them. Until such evolution has taken place and scientifically proven resistant bees are produced then i’ll continue to treat.

Evolution is continuous and happening in our hives now.
The form it takes isn't necessarily a strikingly new appearance or behavioural pattern, the tiniest differences in morphology, physiology or behaviour in any single bee may have the potential to give a tiny advantage to the wellbeing or extended survival of its colony.

@Beesnaturally Please keep up your thought-provoking, well evidenced and good humoured contibutions here.

 

[rolande]

This lax approach I'm guessing is continually monitored and reviewed (with options in the mental armoury ready to save struggling bees)and is attained with hard won experience, crucially you'd not advocate this lax approach to all and sundry without thoughtful caveats.
I'm pretty much in the same boat.

100%. Exactly @mbc, I *should* have made that clear in my post.

 

[pargyle]

I suggest you wind your neck in rather than accuse me of something I wasn't doing. Ask BN himself about our many email conversations back in the day. I was stating a fact.

I've also taken an exceptionally light hand with varroa treatment for years, you'll find comments to that affect in the forum archives no doubt.

The post was not specifically directed af you - more at the comment that I highlighted in your post - so climb down off your horse - I was not accusing you of anything.

 

[rolande]

The post was not specifically directed af you - more at the comment that I highlighted in your post - so climb down off your horse - I was not accusing you of anything.

That's cool. Maybe quote someone else in future in that case, I mean, there are a lot of posts in this thread from other people that could have given you the 'in' to make your point.

But it's all good stuff and I certainly don't want to be responsible in part or otherwise for getting this thread locked.

 

[madasafish]

And the they medicate the whole lot and wonder why they are back at square one!

No that is NOT true.
I medicate my bees.
But my varroa counts are very low..Almost every hive has low mite drops - even just before treatment.
As I select and don't breed from colonies with high varroa - and have done for the past six years, it appears to have worked.
I also don't breed from bad tempered or runny colonies. My bees are calm. That works as well

 

[Beesnaturally]

From what I know of Jbm and what I can discern from your posts he's a vastly more experienced beekeeper and has a better understanding of bee and mite biology than you, so a little self awareness and humility wouldn't go amiss imho.

Deep beekeeping experience doesn't necessarily give you _any_ knowledge of the rapid evolutionary changes bought about by natural selection, nor of the parallel between that and breeding. Without that basic you can't see the point of 3/4 of what I'm trying to show you.

I think the problem with the "blueprint" you seem to be advocating is that many have been there and experienced the car crash themselves and so don't like seeing this sort of advice pumped out ready to be read by unwary beginners without challenge.

I'm not offering a blueprint. I'm explaining what works and why - for the benefit of those interested in learning about genetic husbandry and treatment free beekeeping - including those who will learn that they don't have any chance of success. Be wary, fine. But read what I've said: it doesn't work everywhere and here is why: medicating beekeepers perpetuating the problem.

Read Randy say _exactly_ the same thing in my post yesterday.

This is fundamental stuff. If you can't see there is something getting in the way - maybe lack of appropriate education, maybe fear of trying - but don't try to block the conversation between others with stupid and insulting non-posts.

Jbm is in his own humorous way offering this challenge, if you don't like it there's an ignore function.

If that's your idea of humour I'm very glad I don't know you personally.

If jbm wants to offer a _substantive_ challenge I'll meet him.

I wouldn't wish it on anyone, and certainly not on your poor bees, but my money is on it all going horribly wrong for you ...

People have been telling me - and others - that for 10 years and more. For a great many it has gone wrong _and I'm trying to show you why it goes wrong_

If I thought it could be made to work I'd take you up on your offer, and put £500 on the table.

...sits 8n the archives of the forum ready to lead astray future beekeepers.

What are so afraid of that you want to censor me? Do you own shares in bayer or something?

This bs makes me cross. You clearly know nothing of treatment free beekeeping, yet here you are trying in a high-handed way to close down those who do have such experience.

No one should watch colonies with high mite counts slowly die even if they believe 8ts for a greater cause in the long run, its cruel

And right there is a telling detail.

The old boy who taught me beekeeping 35 years ago was a true countryman. He'd worked in the countryside, bred animals, and kept bees all his life, and had great respect for wild animals. He told me the twin countryside rule-set when dealing with wild animals.

1) Never help a wild animal. The reason is that the weak must die so that the population, now and in the future, remains strong.

2) Everything deserves its chance. Never, unless truly necessary to prevent suffering, kill a wounded wild animal. It might just go on and make it, and the future population may be better for its strength.

These old boys understood nature. The understood, in their bones and in the lives, the necessity of letting natural selection play out.

People who keep bees as you would pets are a curse on the Honeybee. Her wellbeing, now and in the future, depends on the strength of her genetic coding. That coding is made strong by constant winnowing of the weak. That is how nature works, and listen up: its how husbandry is done.

If your bees are over-run with mites do what you will. They are your pets. But know that every time you keep weak individuals alive and send their genes into the future you weaken the population.

There endeth your lesson on genetic husbandry. Please get to know the basics that countrymen have known for thousands of years before giving me your pious talk of cruelty again.

 

[Beesnaturally]

The hard Bond test is just that; hard on the bees, hard on anyone who's trying to make a living by keeping bees (alive).

Yes it is, but if you have all the pieces in place its a *process* with an end. And then you go on making a living with healthy happy bees who fight their own battles.

 

[Beesnaturally]

No that is NOT true.
I medicate my bees.
But my varroa counts are very low..Almost every hive has low mite drops - even just before treatment.
As I select and don't breed from colonies with high varroa - and have done for the past six years, it appears to have worked.

Without knowing your circumstances I can't add much. If you are in a favourable environment (genetically speaking) and you are not bringing in unhealthy bees (in terms of vulnerability to varroa) that will be easy, and you may well be able to stop medicating altogether will little or no ill effects.

There are other factors of course.

My point here is just that: there are several key factors to weaning off meds, and you have to know where you stand with all of them, and why they are factors.

And you have to think 'breeding population. Its no good being focused on individuals. Its the journey of genes through the generations that is the key.

 

[mbc]

Evolution is continuous

Deep beekeeping experience doesn't necessarily give you _any_ knowledge of the rapid evolutionary changes bought about by natural selection, nor of the parallel between that and breeding. Without that basic you can't see the point of 3/4 of what I'm trying to show you.



I'm not offering a blueprint. I'm explaining what works and why - for the benefit of those interested in learning about genetic husbandry and treatment free beekeeping - including those who will learn that they don't have any chance of success. Be wary, fine. But read what I've said: it doesn't work everywhere and here is why: medicating beekeepers perpetuating the problem.

Read Randy say _exactly_ the same thing in my post yesterday.

This is fundamental stuff. If you can't see there is something getting in the way - maybe lack of appropriate education, maybe fear of trying - but don't try to block the conversation between others with stupid and insulting non-posts.



If that's your idea of humour I'm very glad I don't know you personally.

If jbm wants to offer a _substantive_ challenge I'll meet him.



People have been telling me - and others - that for 10 years and more. For a great many it has gone wrong _and I'm trying to show you why it goes wrong_

If I thought it could be made to work I'd take you up on your offer, and put £500 on the table.



What are so afraid of that you want to censor me? Do you own shares in bayer or something?

This bs makes me cross. You clearly know nothing of treatment free beekeeping, yet here you are trying in a high-handed way to close down those who do have such experience.



And right there is a telling detail.

The old boy who taught me beekeeping 35 years ago was a true countryman. He'd worked in the countryside, bred animals, and kept bees all his life, and had great respect for wild animals. He told me the twin countryside rule-set when dealing with wild animals.

1) Never help a wild animal. The reason is that the weak must die so that the population, now and in the future, remains strong.

2) Everything deserves its chance. Never, unless truly necessary to prevent suffering, kill a wounded wild animal. It might just go on and make it, and the future population may be better for its strength.

These old boys understood nature. The understood, in their bones and in the lives, the necessity of letting natural selection play out.

People who keep bees as you would pets are a curse on the Honeybee. Her wellbeing, now and in the future, depends on the strength of her genetic coding. That coding is made strong by constant winnowing of the weak. That is how nature works, and listen up: its how husbandry is done.

If your bees are over-run with mites do what you will. They are your pets. But know that every time you keep weak individuals alive and send their genes into the future you weaken the population.

There endeth your lesson on genetic husbandry. Please get to know the basics that countrymen have known for thousands of years before giving me your pious talk of cruelty again.

And learn some manners too. I can give as good as I get.

You're sticking them in a box and feeding them then equating them to a wild creature best left to their own devices, delusional.
Try seeing how good your "blueprint"* is if you stop feeding, no less intrusive and prejudicial to survival of the fittest than varroa treatments.
I'm I no way trying to block you posting or trying to shut down any conversations but if what I read from you or any other poster seems to me to be factually erroneous or misleading then it needs thrashing out.
To be taken seriously you may want to rethink posting such nonsense as you have about isolated mating in the vast wildernesses of Kent, you've amongst the highest density of bees in the country on your doorstep.
* the inverted commas imply acceptance it's not actually a blueprint but might as well be for the sake of this discussion.

Keep posting champ, this is fun

 

[Fusion_power]

My understanding of feral colonies was that they swarm more often therefore resulting in lower mite loads due to brood breaks

Brood breaks are one of the mechanisms that helps reduce varroa counts, but it usually fails to help in the second year for an established colony. The usual cycle is for a strong colony to throw a swarm leaving the parent with a very high count of varroa mostly in the brood cells. By the time a new queen starts laying, that parent colony has plenty of varroa ready to multiply. The parent usually dies in the subsequent winter. The swarm meantime started off with a relatively low varroa count and may survive to repeat the cycle again a year later.

1. Varroa selective hygiene - opening cells and removing infested larvae
2. Allogrooming - bees grooming each other to remove mites, some bees maul the mites which kills them
3. Reduced days to worker maturity - a bee that emerges just 1 day earlier tends to significantly reduce varroa reproductive efficiency
4. Brood breaks - a break in the brood cycle prevents reproduction though adult bees are still being parasitized
5. Lower virulence mites - reproduce less often making them less likely to overwhelm a colony of bees
6. Mite entombing - bees selectively wall in mites using larval cocoons after an infested bee emerges
7. Alternative variants of iridescent viruses in a population may be less virulent and therefore less likely to trigger colony collapse

There are half a dozen more minor traits that help with varroa resistance. IMO, allogrooming and VSH combined have the most potential.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Deep beekeeping experience doesn't necessarily give you _any_ knowledge of the rapid evolutionary changes bought about by natural selection, nor of the parallel between that and breeding. Without that basic you can't see the point of 3/4 of what I'm trying to show you.



I'm not offering a blueprint. I'm explaining what works and why - for the benefit of those interested in learning about genetic husbandry and treatment free beekeeping - including those who will learn that they don't have any chance of success. Be wary, fine. But read what I've said: it doesn't work everywhere and here is why: medicating beekeepers perpetuating the problem.

Read Randy say _exactly_ the same thing in my post yesterday.

This is fundamental stuff. If you can't see there is something getting in the way - maybe lack of appropriate education, maybe fear of trying - but don't try to block the conversation between others with stupid and insulting non-posts.



If that's your idea of humour I'm very glad I don't know you personally.

If jbm wants to offer a _substantive_ challenge I'll meet him.



People have been telling me - and others - that for 10 years and more. For a great many it has gone wrong _and I'm trying to show you why it goes wrong_

If I thought it could be made to work I'd take you up on your offer, and put £500 on the table.



What are so afraid of that you want to censor me? Do you own shares in bayer or something?

This bs makes me cross. You clearly know nothing of treatment free beekeeping, yet here you are trying in a high-handed way to close down those who do have such experience.



And right there is a telling detail.

The old boy who taught me beekeeping 35 years ago was a true countryman. He'd worked in the countryside, bred animals, and kept bees all his life, and had great respect for wild animals. He told me the twin countryside rule-set when dealing with wild animals.

1) Never help a wild animal. The reason is that the weak must die so that the population, now and in the future, remains strong.

2) Everything deserves its chance. Never, unless truly necessary to prevent suffering, kill a wounded wild animal. It might just go on and make it, and the future population may be better for its strength.

These old boys understood nature. The understood, in their bones and in the lives, the necessity of letting natural selection play out.

People who keep bees as you would pets are a curse on the Honeybee. Her wellbeing, now and in the future, depends on the strength of her genetic coding. That coding is made strong by constant winnowing of the weak. That is how nature works, and listen up: its how husbandry is done.

If your bees are over-run with mites do what you will. They are your pets. But know that every time you keep weak individuals alive and send their genes into the future you weaken the population.

There endeth your lesson on genetic husbandry. Please get to know the basics that countrymen have known for thousands of years before giving me your pious talk of cruelty again.

And learn some manners too. I can give as good as I get.

Im sorry but this is has turned into a religious crusade and gone on for far too long. You want to continue your preaching go right ahead but for god's sake give us a rest from the endless chatter and attempts to convince everyday beekeepers of the righteousness of your particular creed. Those of us who treat our bees against varroa mite infestation are working towards our bees living and working in reasonable conditions. I'll pose a question for others to consider - if your dog has fleas or your children have lice would you leave them to suffer the effects in the hope future generations would become resistant (particularly if the fleas/lice were carrying a disease - happily bubonic plague is rare these days)?

 

[user 20297]

Im sorry but this is has turned into a religious crusade and gone on for far too long. You want to continue your preaching go right ahead but for god's sake give us a rest from the endless chatter and attempts to convince everyday beekeepers of the righteousness of your particular creed. Those of us who treat our bees against varroa mite infestation are working towards our bees living and working in reasonable conditions. I'll pose a question for others to consider - if your dog has fleas or your children have lice would you leave them to suffer the effects in the hope future generations would become resistant (particularly if the fleas/lice were carrying a disease - happily bubonic plague is rare these days)?

No, obviously he would fumigate his children and dogs with a strong acidic sublimate.

 

[Sanntos]

.....
1. Varroa selective hygiene - opening cells and removing infested larvae
2. Allogrooming - bees grooming each other to remove mites, some bees maul the mites which kills them
3. Reduced days to worker maturity - a bee that emerges just 1 day earlier tends to significantly reduce varroa reproductive efficiency
4. Brood breaks - a break in the brood cycle prevents reproduction though adult bees are still being parasitized
5. Lower virulence mites - reproduce less often making them less likely to overwhelm a colony of bees
6. Mite entombing - bees selectively wall in mites using larval cocoons after an infested bee emerges
7. Alternative variants of iridescent viruses in a population may be less virulent and therefore less likely to trigger colony collapse

There are half a dozen more minor traits that help with varroa resistance. IMO, allogrooming and VSH combined have the most potential.

Maybe there are more traits - bees prefer to leave the colony and die outside. If bees with mites would do that

 

[mbc]

Maybe there are more traits - bees prefer to leave the colony and die outside. If bees with mites would do that

The successful mites prefer to hitch a lift from relatively healthy bees who'll be accepted into another hive

 

[Sanntos]

Im sorry but this is has turned into a religious crusade .....

It IS a religious crusade. And beginning beekeepers are the followers, buying it all

 

[Beesnaturally]

I'd forgotten about the bad back so that answers one question that had been niggling away.

As for your description of what sounds like apiary vicinity mating, I did miss that link, but as I've said on many threads before, I've never been convinced. Bit of an artifact of high density apiaries if anything at all.

The abstract gives a good idea:

https://repository.royalholloway.ac...5be407bf77/1/Jensen etal 2005 ConGenetics.pdf

 

[Sanntos]

The successful mites prefer to hitch a lift from relatively healthy bees who'll be accepted into another hive

Yes, of course. But bees, they sacrifice them selves for the colony, so there's a opportunity

 

[Finman]

The abstract gives a good idea:

https://repository.royalholloway.ac...5be407bf77/1/Jensen etal 2005 ConGenetics.pdf

You cannot breed resistant bees with ideas.
Published 2005.

 

[pargyle]

Im sorry but this is has turned into a religious crusade and gone on for far too long. You want to continue your preaching go right ahead but for god's sake give us a rest from the endless chatter and attempts to convince everyday beekeepers of the righteousness of your particular creed. Those of us who treat our bees against varroa mite infestation are working towards our bees living and working in reasonable conditions. I'll pose a question for others to consider - if your dog has fleas or your children have lice would you leave them to suffer the effects in the hope future generations would become resistant (particularly if the fleas/lice were carrying a disease - happily bubonic plague is rare these days)?

I don't think it's a crusade ... I don't see anywhere that anyone is being forced into following a treatment free route .. there are well documented instances where treatment free is working without detriment to the bees or the beekeepers honey crop (me for one - but there are many, many others now following a TF regime). It's not for everyone and I accept that it won't work in every location and in every circumstance but it's interesting to hear of a beekeeper who has managed TF successfully with a significant number of colonies over a significant period. If you don't like what is being said - don't read it. There's the ignore button if you really cannot resist the temptation to read the things that appear to annoy you.

Lively debate has always been at the heart of this forum and I see no reason to castigate or stymie a poster for bringing forward their views and experiences .. whether you agree with them or not.

As for the analogy of fleas on a dog ... it's been put forward as the antithesis to being treatment free in beekeeping on many occasions and it just does not hold water. I've always kept dogs .. some seem to attract ticks and fleas - others seem never to collect them. In some cases you may never notice that a dog had fleas - would I treat prophylactically my dog with fluvalinates - just in case they caught a flea - no I would not. Would I treat a dog that was infested to the point that it was evidently suffering - of course I would. But - if my bees are thriving and there are no signs of detriment from the parasites then. perhaps, there is a good case for not treating them ? With that goes a responsibility to be certain that there is no detriment and that requires good husbandry - the continual inference that being treatment free equates to let alone beekeeping is misguided - those of us who are TF are probably as aware (and in some cases more aware) than some beekeepers who simply follow what the book says and treat with little awareness of the infestation levels or the effect that it has on their bees.

But, as I've often said, it's not a path I would recommend for everyone and certainly not for a new beekeeper with one or two colonies (although I started out TF and I was lucky) .. you need to have an understanding of bees and to be able to recognise any signs of stress or distress. There's more to it than just stopping treatment.

But ... there's a place for debate and the knowledge and understanding of how other beekeepers keep their bees never did anyone any harm in the continual learning curve of the craft.