Invert sugar question

[Beersmith]

Reading some of the threads on feeding bees, I have seen a number of comments to the effect that when feeding, invert sugar does not or will not ferment at all or at least not as readily as ordinary sugar syrup.

Now from my username you will see that I have another interest. When brewing it is well established that invert sugar ferments very readily indeed. Far more so than ordinary sugar. Yeast actually produce an enzyme that inverts sucrose to simpler sugars.

So I am puzzled. Something is clearly making an important difference. I wondered if the preparation which sometimes involves boiling the syrup might kill stray yeast. Maybe the bees just assimilate it better or quicker so it doesn't sit there waiting for the yeast to get busy. But to be honest this is just speculation on my part.

I wonder if someone could explain what is happening please?

 

[Beefriendly]

Invert syrup for bees is a highly concentrated solution of inmverted sugars (density of 1,37kg/litre) or around 80%+ sugar solution. Unless you dilute it (as you would in brewing) it's too concentrated for any yeast or bacteria to grow in it.

 

[For want of a better word]

Inverted sugar ( Fructose) provided as bee feed is very concentrated and yeasts need a higher level of hydration to grow plus fruit acids (malic etc) and traces elements.. phosphates, nitrates etc... to provide nutrition for the yeast.

Never tried diluting it to see what happens... perhaps an experiment for the Mooshiners among the readership?

Chons da

 

[Beersmith]

Thank you. Most helpful.

I did not realize that invert syrup for bees was that concentrated. I made the foolish assumption that the concentration would be similar to white sugar syrup say 1:1 or similar.

Thanks again.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thank you. Most helpful.

I did not realize that invert syrup for bees was that concentrated. I made the foolish assumption that the concentration would be similar to white sugar syrup say 1:1 or similar.

Thanks again.

You can’t make sugar solution using sucrose at home as concentrated as invert syrup.
It’s nigh on impossible to make 2:1 using metric weight. You might get it all to dissolve with heat but whenever I have used it it’s started to crystallise in the feeder
I’m sure there is somebody who says they can but I can’t
When I used to make heavy syrup it was 2lb to a pint
Then I abandoned that to use a marked plastic jerry can and use volume
Then I gave that up and bought invert

 

[Beefriendly]

It’s nigh on impossible to make 2:1 using metric weight. You might get it all to dissolve with heat but whenever I have used it it’s started to crystallise in the feeder

You are aiming too high. Go for approx 60%, not 66% as in a metric 2:1. TRy dissolving 1 kg sugar in 625ml of water.
No crystallisation in feeder.
It's the 2:1 in old fashioned lbs and pints doesn't translate into the same in metric. Old fashioned 2:1 values translate to 0.9kg sugar to 0.56 litres water.

Looks like the annual sugar dissolving debate is about to begin

 

[Swarm]

I always worked on 2 - 1 by volume of the vessel doing the measuring. After reducing the apiary numbers, it's so much easier to use invert as my bees rarely need much feeding. I generally feed some invert during the Ivy flow, to get some Thymol into them.

 

[Erichalfbee]

You are aiming too high. Go for approx 60%, not 66% as in a metric 2:1. TRy dissolving 1 kg sugar in 625ml of water.
No crystallisation in feeder.
I think it's the 2:1 in old fashioned lbs and pints doesn't translate into metric.

Looks like the annual sugar dissolving debate is about to begin

Yep
2lbs sugar in 1pint always worked
I love the sugar debate.
I look forward to it without fail
Moles
W/V
V/W
W/W
V/V
Wonderful, when the bees couldn’t care less if it’s 2:1 or 1.95:1

 

[Beefriendly]

I generally feed some invert during the Ivy flow, to get some Thymol into them.

I'm presuming you are adding the thymol to your invert?

 

[Erichalfbee]

After reducing the apiary numbers, it's so much easier to use invert as my bees rarely need much feeding. I generally feed some invert during the Ivy flow, to get some Thymol into them.

Same here.

 

[For want of a better word]

I'm presuming you are adding the thymol to your invert?

No need to add thymol to invert... invert will not normally ferment... but definitely add thymol to the 2:1 sugar ... 2kg white granulated to 1.25 liter of fresh warm water... as this will stop fermentation/ bacterial growth whilst in the feeder... the bees will add invertase in their bee spit as they store it!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

No need to add thymol to invert

Nothing to do with fermenting - prophylactic nosema treatment

 

[Erichalfbee]

No need to add thymol to invert... invert will not normally ferment... !

People who add thymol to invert do it for its anti nosema properties

 

[Ian123]

If your just adding to syrup to stop fermenting a few ml of surgical spirit that’s normally used to dissolve the thymol works well on its own. Can’t say for sure it lasts as long as only used in summer for nucs but certainly longer than syrup on its own and no chance of that thymol taste

 

[citrus]

Nothing to do with fermenting - prophylactic nosema treatment

So you add some thymol and treat for once a year as a prophylactic ?

is now the time to do this ? (or when last supers are off)

 

[Beefriendly]

After, unless you have a penchant for thymol tasting honey.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So you add some thymol and treat for once a year as a prophylactic ?

is now the time to do this ? (or when last supers are off)

You add it to their winter stores feed, they will then take it throughout the winter, it has been found that bees treated this way also build up in spring better

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Nothing to do with fermenting - prophylactic nosema treatment

Depends on the concentration.

 

[citrus]

You add it to their winter stores feed, they will then take it throughout the winter, it has been found that bees treated this way also build up in spring better

see we generally get loads of ivy here so bees tend to overwinter on that so wasnt really thinking of feeding them ... but then they miss out their medicine !

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

see we generally get loads of ivy here so bees tend to overwinter on that so wasnt really thinking of feeding them ... but then they miss out their medicine !

feed as they are foraging the ivy - even if only a few pints, at least it gives them a dose at the beginning of winter and will keep the ivy a bit more liquid