Insulation!!!!!!!!!

[mbc]

Agreed, our winters are tame compared to Scotland. Another part of my reasoning on insulation was a speaker our local association had a year or two ago. He was a canadian sideliner and he said that his winters were -30 degrees and lower for months, he used no insulation and had wooden hives but his biggest concern was keeeping hives clear underneath and entrance to maintain airflow as snow was in excess of 2 feet deep. He actually said that the most important thing was to have healthy bees with queens from the locality that were used to the climatic conditions.

2ft of snow is quite a lot of insulation

 

[Finman]

2ft of snow is quite a lot of insulation

that is some kind of illusion. Rest period of our bees is 7 months long, and hives are under snow only 2 months. It add insulation during coldest monts.
But bees are in better condition after Winter, if they are not under snow.

How many weeks are under snow in Scotland?

A week ago snow cover was 60 cm, next day 50 cm and after few days 45 cm. Its own weight press the stuff tighter.

One millimeter water makes 10 mm snow rain.

 

[the naked beekeeper]

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=5732&stc=1&d=1327854600

Cornwall..........

Better than living in England!

 

[Hivemaker.]

He was a canadian sideliner and he said that his winters were -30 degrees and lower for months, he used no insulation and had wooden hives but his biggest concern was keeeping hives clear underneath and entrance to maintain airflow as snow was in excess of 2 feet deep.

Bet the bees were Buckfasts...

 

[drumgerry]

How many weeks are under snow in Scotland?

This winter zero weeks Finman. But the previous two winters we've had months with snow on the ground - up to 70-80cm at times where my hives are positioned. A typical winter here in Speyside would be some weeks with snow cover, some weeks of frost and temps down to -20C and the rest relatively mild and autumn-like. We've had much more of the latter this winter and our minimum temp has only been -8C!

 

[beebreeder]

HM I know you have some powers as mod. but a sixth sense? the bees in the canadian hives were Buckfasts and the Bees in the hive that lost its roof are headed by one of Nortons Superbee queens of 2011 (Not advertising, just fact). I do not want to open another heated discussion but to me the Buckfast is the native bee, Brother Adam gave the larger part of his life developing a bee that works well in our climate and this colony is proof of that work. As this thread is about insulation I had not mentioned the queens as I felt this to be a seperate subject

 

[BBG]

Derekm

"A thin walled hive also has considerable heat gain in summer, another source of thermal stress. Insulation as in 6inches of wood also protects the nest from excessive heat gain. 1/2" plywood will only give an interior 3 deg C less than the hot sun heated outer surface.

Bees do have a remarkable ability to control their nest environment. However, we should endeavour not to test this ability to the extreme but rather stay well inside their control space."



Yes, and I created a lot of fuss over this when 15 nucs arrived at the local association in 3/8" ply and were left cooking in the midday sun for a long time.

'Experienced' beekeepers took the opposite tack saying the bees could cope. Most did.

As Drstitson says 'they were 'surviving' not thriving.'

It'll take another two generations.


Tonybloke: The good old days hey! Ayup lad. lol.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eDaSvRO9xA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eDaSvRO9xA[/ame]

 

[Hivemaker.]

Beebreeder, sounds like yours are doing well,stick more stones on the roofs.lol.
Looking good here as well,all wooden hives,and lots of 9mm five frame nucs,only half a dozen losses last winter,(mainly drone layers)and zero the winter before,which was also quite a hard winter.

 

[BBG]

Yes and a long time beekeeper and inspector with numerous cedar hives only had one loss in 18 years, that due to his miscalculation on stores.

The thought they starved because of that oversight, still plagues him.

 

[Finman]

.
Guys, you are proud that your hives have the thinnest walls in the world, a mesh bottom open and still, your bees are alive.....

- But you do not speak about food consumption
- Spring build up
- Summer build up of nucs and swarms

- all the time I may read about weak hives 4, 5,6 occupied frames and you have long summer to grow them big.

- you start emercengy feeding in December. Continuous feedind keeps brooding on and wintering suffers from that.

- you have healtier bees because they are in cold fresh air....even pathogens do no stay alive in hives


from my well insulated country I can say that you have much to learn. But when your only measure is to keep hives alive (not big honey yields) it is well done in those thinnest boxes in the wor ld.

 

[drstitson]

well said finman - any wonder why beekeeping is an amateur occupation in the UK?

Look at ITLD - he can quote the true relative cost benefit of foundation vs starter strips etc. what has he been using for his hives for years? no boasting about thin cedar from him.

 

[Into the lions den]

.
it is well done in those thinnest boxes in the wor ld.

Not strictly correct, but yet another of those little niceties that gives UK beekeepers limited choice of relatively expensive gear.

Our UK Nationals and Smiths are unique sizing so cannot have a direct comparison with the offerings in other countries, however UK made Langstroths have slightly thicker walls than their USA or Canadian counterparts .........ok so its one sixteenth of an inch.....but thicker nonetheless. Unfortunately they take this extra off the INSIDE dimensions. So our boxes are an eighth narrower.

Which then locks you into slightly narrower spacing than in international standard, which get very tight at 10 to a UK box once used and have a bit of wax/propolis on them, or get a little damp and swell.

Only Aus/NZ have a stranger way, narrower still, and shorter by a couple of mm, but this has a valid historical reason to it, making do in the colonial era with the end panels out of kerosene boxes for fronts and backs.

 

[Finman]

.
I kept bees 10 years in 30 mm solid wood boxes.
Then I added a 10 mm insulation board on the surface. The food consumption dropped 30% but the wood start to rotten with high speed.

1988 I got my first polyboxes. In them the Spring build up and the yield was so good that they payed themselves with first Summer yield.

I still have my 45 year old solid wood boxes. I know how cold they are to bees to inhabit. Nothing to be proud of them.

Polynuc boxes 3+4 frames are the best what I have invented. I use them as mating nucs.
Build up is huge. Very flexiple to maintain because I can change frames between nucs and productive hives. They have 2 x 2 cm entrance even if out temp is 30C + solid floor.

I did not care amout heat economy before 2003. I thought that it is what it is.
But then 60% of my yard died and I tried to boost my rest hives so much as I could. Then I bought first terrarium heaters. Results were marvelous. I learned gradually what heat means to colony build up.

Many beekeepers said that it is syn to aid bees with electrict. It is not natural. They really were angry to me.

You need not believe me. It is not my problem. When snow start to melt, I change clean bottoms and install heaters. Biggest hives get biggest advantage from heating and from patty feeding. I get 3-fold build up speed with this system.

A month after the start of patty feeding my biggest hives have 10-15 frames of brood and that gang will forage raspberry yield. Those hives which have 5 brood frames, they cannot forage surplus from raspberry. They are still builging up their colony.

But if small colonies are not ready to forage at the beginning of main yield, I join them to big units.

- The heat is they key word. And the first secret of heat is insulation.
- Second is a proper ventilation. - not open bottom
- bee race Italian and hives have 5-7 Langstroth boxes in main yield

This is controversy what I read here.

 

[drstitson]

"bee race Italian and hives have 5-7 Langstroth boxes in main yield"

amazing - even on warm home territory A.M.L. get by on single dadant boxes plus 0-2 supers max.

 

[Finman]

My first goal is to harvest orchard + dandelion yield at the beginning of June.
Hives need to have 3 weeks old workers,because only they forage. Wintered bees are all dead

i start patty feeding about 7.4.

About 7.5 a month later the hive has new nurser bees and it can make so big brood ball as they have the colony size. When you calculate the volume of a ball and follow what happen to radius and the volume, it is exponent 4 what volume expands when radius grows 1 unit.

You need a lbox full of capped brood that this gang can forage a month later. It gives 3 box foragers.
If you have 3 frames full of capped brood, you get one box full of bees. And this size gang of foragers can only feed the expanding brood.

 

[Finman]

..
FACTS

- 15 mm polystyrene board insulation value is equal 150 mm dry wood

- ply may absorb moisture 30% of its weight = worse insulation

- polystyrene does not keep warm if you keep bottom open

- bees produce the heat, not sunshine. Insulation hinders the heat to escape.

- it is cold at night and in rainy weather. Don't imagine that bee life is mere sunshine.

- the bigger the room, the bigger the surface which conduct the heat out.

- air heating does not need much energy. It is walls which bind the heat.

- heating the wind - no need to explain

.

 

[Hivemaker.]

..
FACTS
- polystyrene does not keep warm if you keep bottom open
- heating the wind - no need to explain
.

The heat loss from the bottom helps to melt the snow,and keep the grass warm.

 

[Finman]

.
Oh I see. And I get fresh rabbit steak from garden.

But here it seems bad. Now we have -12C but next night the temp dives to -25C
and stays there few days. Siberia is here.

I put now couple of heaters to small hives. It needs 6W now.
3W does not help. I may use 6W as 3W later when I put the timer cut the current in 15 min interwalls.

 

[user 6228]

..
FACTS

- 15 mm polystyrene board insulation value is equal 150 mm dry wood

- .

A slight correction:
34mm of polystrene is equivalent to 150mm oak. (but that does not affect the vaildity of your argument)

 

[Hivemaker.]

.
Oh I see. And I get fresh rabbit steak from garden.

Yes, and ready cooked by the heat lost from the hives.

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=8117