Insulation!!!!!!!!!

[tonybloke]

Finman, our house is heated by a wood-burner in the front (sitting) room, connected to dining room by wide open archway. the front room has vent to outside of house for fresh air supply for the fire.

 

[tonybloke]

erm do think so Finman and dont think so Tonybloke, look at comparitive death rates- yes real winters equals better rates of bugs (fewer colds etc) but kills more people in cold houses. winter cold kills- either by being too cold and removing the bug problem (apparently) but kills those that cant keep warm, or a mild winter allows more bugs and people catch all sorts of nasties...

sorry chycarne, but I was not discussing death rates.
in response to finmans warmer houses = healthier people, I disagree. whilst the warmth may keep more alive, it doesn't mean they'd be healthy, per se.

 

[Finman]

sorry chycarne, but I was not discussing death rates.
in response to finmans warmer houses = healthier people, I disagree. whilst the warmth may keep more alive, it doesn't mean they'd be healthy, per se.

we have a proverb " heat does not break bones"

 

[tonybloke]

we have a proverb " heat does not break bones"

I reckon that anything over 400 deg C will break most bones

 

[tonybloke]

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=5732&stc=1&d=1327854600

 

[dpearce4]

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=5732&stc=1&d=1327854600

Ouch your off my Xmas Card list Tony.

 

[beebreeder]

Do you get frost in Wiltshire? Or snow?

Yes we do get frost and snow in wiltshire, The village was snowed in for nearly a week last winter, only way in or out was 4x4 and even then with care.
Tony our bungalow is heated with a villager woodburner and open doors to circulate the warm air, from a southerner. LOL

 

[drstitson]

"The village was snowed in for nearly a week last winter, only way in or out was 4x4"

surely that means it wasn't snowed in? Snowed in means having to wait for the plough.

 

[Finman]

.
Don't worry. A Siberian cold "snab" has arrived to Germany, and it takes one day when it is in British Isles. Move your firewood store inside and get enough matches.
Snab has been here already few days. In Eastern Finland it was this morning -35C.
I had only -18C when I arrvived to my Summer cottage. This house is uncomfortably cold and I will return to Helsinki as soon as possible.

To morrow wax moths will be dead in my comb store. You are right about pathogens....I open the doors and windows.

 

[user 6228]

I have been reading the usual winter threads on how much and what insulation colonies need for the winter with a slight smile. I have 12mm ply nucs with no insulation doing very well thankyou and mini nucs thriving, just need to top the food up regular. I was out today checking a site that is in the middle of a very busy shoot so it has not been checked since before christmas, one hive roof blown clean off and both feed holes open. The crownboard was soaking wet so I cracked it to see if there was any life, sure enough 7-8 seams of bees, not to welcoming but i gave them some fondant and put the roof back on. The roof is a lightweight cedar roof I have been given, it now has a brick on. Those bees have had six mm ply with two holes in it for who know how long to keep them warm. Insulation, don't think they need it, I have never seen a tree with kingspan over the top of the nest!

I'm glad you raise the comparision of your hives and trees nests I can prove using long established method of detemining heat flow that
bees in your plywood hives are thermally ~10 times worse off than a typical nest in a tree.

A typical tree nest may have tens of ft of wood on the roof and typically 6" walls. The long entrance tunnel further helps them to lower their energy requirement.

Why do you find it necessary to subject your bees to such extremes of thermal stress compared to their natural environment?
One should bear inmind survival, or honey production in such animal with complex thermal management is not proof of lack of stress

 

[drstitson]

"Why do you find it necessary to subject your bees to such extremes of thermal stress compared to their natural environment?"

yes - in my book not far removed from large scale american "husbandry". which of course often involves culling the hives before winter anyway and buying southern packages in spring.

 

[beebreeder]

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I started this thread sharing an experience, if you think i would leave my hives with no roof for the fun of it then you are all wrong. The point I was making is that even without a roof the bees are still thriving, if thermal stress is not manageable by the bees without insulation, then does does the opposite apply, do we need to put cooling fans under the hive in midsummer when the temps can be the other extreme. Bees have a remarkable ability to control their cluster temperature, just look at Jurgen tautz's book on the heater bees.

 

[drstitson]

Sorry - I wasn't trashing a view or point just putting my own POV.

"even without a roof the bees are still thriving"

i'd prefer to use the term "surviving"

yes bees can regulate their environment but that uses energy (and presumably contributes to death of individual bees?).

a snapshot of a single live colony can in no way inform wrt "thriving"

give me two absolutely IDENTICAL hives and colonies in autumn; give one a thin wet crownboard for a month or two over winter; then show me the state of the colonies in spring and then the honey harvest. i'd happily bet which one is stronger, healthier and gives more honey.

 

[drumgerry]

Do you get frost in Wiltshire? Or snow?

Yes we do get frost and snow in wiltshire, The village was snowed in for nearly a week last winter, only way in or out was 4x4 and even then with care.

Sorry I was being slightly facetious there. I do know you get snow and frost but the point I was making was that it seems faintly ridiculous to be making such generalisations about insulation when you live in the relatively warm and balmy south. Incidentally during the winter of 2009-2010 we had snow on the ground here from December till April. Makes your week seem a bit tame no?

 

[beebreeder]

Agreed, our winters are tame compared to Scotland. Another part of my reasoning on insulation was a speaker our local association had a year or two ago. He was a canadian sideliner and he said that his winters were -30 degrees and lower for months, he used no insulation and had wooden hives but his biggest concern was keeeping hives clear underneath and entrance to maintain airflow as snow was in excess of 2 feet deep. He actually said that the most important thing was to have healthy bees with queens from the locality that were used to the climatic conditions.

 

[user 6228]

... if thermal stress is not manageable by the bees without insulation, then does does the opposite apply, do we need to put cooling fans under the hive in midsummer when the temps can be the other extreme. Bees have a remarkable ability to control their cluster temperature, just look at Jurgen tautz's book on the heater bees.

A thin walled hive also has considerable heat gain in summer, another source of thermal stress. Insulation as in 6inches of wood also protects the nest from excessive heat gain. 1/2" plywood will only give an interior 3 deg C less than the hot sun heated outer surface.

Bees do have a remarkable ability to control their nest environment. However, we should endeavour not to test this ability to the extreme but rather stay well inside their control space.

3/4" of wood is, IMHO, not good. 1/2" of plywood is 33% worse. I of course dont think you would leave the lid off, but their survival of such of event should not be taken IMHO as unconditional licence for 1/2" of plywood.

 

[Nic Rhodes]

How would they have done this time last year in the conditions, the conditions this year have been warm?

 

[Skyhook]

i said COLD fresh air kills pathogens ( slight difference)

and I don't use hot water bottles in bed, thanks.
high TOG rated quilt, and a wife to cuddle up to works for me!!

High Tog quilt, eh? wouldn't be for insulation would it?

 

[Hivemaker.]

How would they have done this time last year in the conditions, the conditions this year have been warm?

Are you just talking about this one colony,or winter losses?

 

[Nic Rhodes]

The one colony Hivemaker, as it was in unusual conditions with roof off. Not to worried by cold tbh in general if hives are put to winter with the right precautions (wood or poly), whether -20 or plus 10. Loose a 'roof'....and it is a different ball game.