Hygienic bees beating varroa - a myth?

[Tremyfro]

Did they tell you how to get you bees tested to find out which type a or b that your bees had? Then if lots of us had typeB we could stop treating which would surely help them spread.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I'm wondering how varroa levels relate to how vulnerable a colony is to chronic paralysis virus? (As that was what caused the damage with my bees last year.)

CBPV is becoming a big problem again in many places.

Honey Bee Viruses, the Deadly Varroa Mite Associates

http://articles.extension.org/pages/71172/honey-bee-viruses-the-deadly-varroa-mite-associates

 

[betterbee]

What about innoculating the bee larvae with a weak form of the b virus strain,possibly fed in syrup or sprayed on open brood

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If you treat all colonies, which will include both typeA and type B dwv virus, you are allowing the typeA virus to continue, instead of it killing the bees

Mites help spread trhe type a virus which slows down the spread of type B - maybe the answer is to kill more motes?

If Australasian etc Amm colonies can live with a heavy mite load, and if Ron's bees can live with a heavy mite load, and none of them show symptoms of DWV then there's no need to kill the mites?

Difference between the type a and type B - you only need to kill mites if you have type A

That would be a disaster, you would just end up rapidly breeding oxalic resistant mites

can you point us to any evidence (even a leetle tiny bit) of mites becoming resistant to having their legs melted off by OA?

I'd like to watch this. I wonder if it was recorded

No I don't think it was - they usually set the camera up at the front

Did the lecturer speak about VSH bees at all?

No - the lecture was all about the discovery of the 'new' virus hygienic bees have no part or effect in this.

As i said, the feeling throughout the whole scientific world at the moment is that this is a major breakthrough - a lot of studies going on in Hawaii at the moment on it. Still early days though

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

What about innoculating the bee larvae with a weak form of the b virus strain,possibly fed in syrup or sprayed on open brood

chances if it working like tat are fairly slim - only way would be to innoculate each one individually with a syringe

 

[For want of a better word]

Did they tell you how to get you bees tested to find out which type a or b that your bees had? Then if lots of us had typeB we could stop treating which would surely help them spread.

Epidemiology does not work in such a simplistic way.. unfortunately....

A diagnostic for EFB and AFB was years in the making... methinks that a diagnostic for DWV would not be worth manufacturing... particularly as with the huge numbers of imported bees that yet another devastating viral disease will soon be decimating the UK colonies

Nos da

 

[pargyle]

That would be a disaster, you would just end up rapidly breeding oxalic resistant mites

No ... there is no evidence that mites have any ability to evolve to be resistant to OA .. unlike treatments based on thymol it is thought that OA works in a completely different way to kill the mites.

Have a read through this old thread:

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=14938

There is no obvious way that mites could become resistant (certainly in the short term) to this type of physical acaricide - unlike Fluvalinate (the active ingredient in Apistan) which is effectively ~ in simple terms ~ is a poison that the mites ingest and which affects their nervous sytem .. like many poisons administered in small doses all species can learn to live with them and almost become immune to them in a relatively short time. One of the reasons that mites became resistance to Fluvalinate was that beekeepers unwittingly allowed the strips to stay in the hives, thus administering small sub lethal dosage over long periods - thus allowing the varroa to build up an immunity to the stuff.

I'm a non-treater but I recognise that this is a course of action that will not be accepted by everyone (if I were honest I would suggest that, in order to allow our bees to evolve we should all stop treatment and face the consequences) but in the absence of this my next best suggestion is for a massive move to OA by sublimation in the beekeeping world of the UK and a concerted effort to treat our bees simultaneously with a treatment that we know is exceptionally effective when used over three brood cycles.

If we are not all going to become non-treaters (and I think it unlikely) then from a pragmatic view our national plan for varroa should be to try to reduce the numbers of mites at a time when they are vulnerable. Indeed, I would suggest that our National Association should be at the forefront of a focused campaign to make this happen.

But what do I know ?

 

[B+.]

.....

 

[Juhani Lundén]

That would be a disaster, you would just end up rapidly breeding oxalic resistant mites

Reports coming from Sardinia, Estonia and Finland beekeepers suspect the effect of oxalic acid is not the same as it used to be.

A fact from Finland is that earlier it was strongly advised to use oxalic acid only once a year. Today all commercial beekeepers use it twice, late autumn and early spring. Effect getting weaker?

 

[mbc]

Bernard posted something interesting on beesource, that the mites scuttle into the nearest brood when vaporising, actively trying to avoid the harmful oxalic acid.
There has also been some suggestion that varroa are evolving to spend less time in the phoretic stage, this would also reduce the effect of oxalic.

 

[For want of a better word]

No ... there is no evidence that mites have any ability to evolve to be resistant to OA .. unlike treatments based on thymol it is thought that OA works in a completely different way to kill the mites.

Have a read through this old thread:

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=14938

There is no obvious way that mites could become resistant (certainly in the short term) to this type of physical acaricide - unlike Fluvalinate (the active ingredient in Apistan) which is effectively ~ in simple terms ~ is a poison that the mites ingest and which affects their nervous sytem .. like many poisons administered in small doses all species can learn to live with them and almost become immune to them in a relatively short time. One of the reasons that mites became resistance to Fluvalinate was that beekeepers unwittingly allowed the strips to stay in the hives, thus administering small sub lethal dosage over long periods - thus allowing the varroa to build up an immunity to the stuff.

I'm a non-treater but I recognise that this is a course of action that will not be accepted by everyone (if I were honest I would suggest that, in order to allow our bees to evolve we should all stop treatment and face the consequences) but in the absence of this my next best suggestion is for a massive move to OA by sublimation in the beekeeping world of the UK and a concerted effort to treat our bees simultaneously with a treatment that we know is exceptionally effective when used over three brood cycles.

If we are not all going to become non-treaters (and I think it unlikely) then from a pragmatic view our national plan for varroa should be to try to reduce the numbers of mites at a time when they are vulnerable. Indeed, I would suggest that our National Association should be at the forefront of a focused campaign to make this happen.

But what do I know ?

A Nationwide effort with teams of inspectors and advisers armed with good advice and varoaicides... much like the WHO's eradication of Smallpox...

Brilliant idea, however a daunting task to find every colony of bees..like all immigrants.. we have got them, we just have to learn to rub along with them... and perhaps prevent more from entering!

Yeghes da

 

[pargyle]

A Nationwide effort with teams of inspectors and advisers armed with good advice and varoaicides... much like the WHO's eradication of Smallpox...

Brilliant idea, however a daunting task to find every colony of bees..like all immigrants.. we have got them, we just have to learn to rub along with them... and perhaps prevent more from entering!

Yeghes da

Yes - I know - and the difficulty (aside from the cost) is that a lot of beekeepers are not receptive to change or interference in the way they have done things for years .. as they were taught. One of the most refreshing things about this forum is the fact that people always seem to be moving forward in beekeeping. Our National Association appears more concerned with its public image at times than the biggest threat to our bees currently on our shores. With SHB and Asian Hornet heading incidiously in our direction it would be nice to see the current (and well established pest) the focus of some national campaigning to hit it and hit it hard and perhaps set a precedent for the time when we have to tackle the next lot of bee pests.

I accept that eradication is almost an impossibility - we do still have feral colonies and until we have national registration (coming soon by all accounts ?) there is no central register of beekeepers let alone hives .. so how you even get to every colony is a mountain to climb. However, we should be starting to do SOMETHING ..

Even as a non-treater - if I thought that there was a point in time when all beekeepers were obliged to do something to reduce the varroa count in their colonies - preferably OA by sublimation .. and perhaps in mid winter - then I would join in for the commom good.

But ... it's a pipe dream ....

 

[Vramin]

Did they tell you how to get you bees tested to find out which type a or b that your bees had? Then if lots of us had typeB we could stop treating which would surely help them spread.

They are testing bees from associations that contributed to the BDI Revive project.

Associations were asked to contribute up to £300 per year for 3 years. £120,000 has been raised from BKAs, BDI and the CB Dennis trust to pay for equipment and testing costs. Salaries though are paid by the universities involved - Salford (prof. Stephen Martin, Biologist) and Plymouth Marine Institute (prof. Declan Schoeder, Virologist).

Samples from 5 colonies per association collected in April and September will be tested for type A (thought to be responsible for year-round deaths, type B (harmless type) and type C (thought to be responsible for winter losses).

If the sampling correlates to actual losses, then the second stage of the project is to look at how this might be used to protect bees. (For example, could queens be infected with type B and distributed).

The way type B protects is by 'super infection exclusion'. In other words, the bees have so much type B that any small amounts of type A are eradicated by recombination between A and B.

Fascinating early research and definitely a reason for optimism.

 

[Tremyfro]

That is good news...thank you for that information.

 

[foghornleghorn]

No ... there is no evidence that mites have any ability to evolve to be resistant to OA .. unlike treatments based on thymol it is thought that OA works in a completely different way to kill the mites.

Have a read through this old thread:

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=14938

There is no obvious way that mites could become resistant (certainly in the short term) to this type of physical acaricide - unlike Fluvalinate (the active ingredient in Apistan) which is effectively ~ in simple terms ~ is a poison that the mites ingest and which affects their nervous sytem .. like many poisons administered in small doses all species can learn to live with them and almost become immune to them in a relatively short time. One of the reasons that mites became resistance to Fluvalinate was that beekeepers unwittingly allowed the strips to stay in the hives, thus administering small sub lethal dosage over long periods - thus allowing the varroa to build up an immunity to the stuff.

I'm a non-treater but I recognise that this is a course of action that will not be accepted by everyone (if I were honest I would suggest that, in order to allow our bees to evolve we should all stop treatment and face the consequences) but in the absence of this my next best suggestion is for a massive move to OA by sublimation in the beekeeping world of the UK and a concerted effort to treat our bees simultaneously with a treatment that we know is exceptionally effective when used over three brood cycles.

If we are not all going to become non-treaters (and I think it unlikely) then from a pragmatic view our national plan for varroa should be to try to reduce the numbers of mites at a time when they are vulnerable. Indeed, I would suggest that our National Association should be at the forefront of a focused campaign to make this happen.

But what do I know ?

If you stick enough selection pressure on anything with a big population you'll breed resistance, by everyone treating at different times your allowing susceptible mite populations to stay high and water down any emerging resistance.

Edit: no observed resistance doesn't mean its not or can't happen

 

[Hivemaker.]

If you stick enough selection pressure on anything with a big population you'll breed resistance

Passenger pigeons had a huge population, but they never become resistant to gun shot.

 

[beeno]

They are testing bees from associations that contributed to the BDI Revive project.

Associations were asked to contribute up to £300 per year for 3 years. £120,000 has been raised from BKAs, BDI and the CB Dennis trust to pay for equipment and testing costs. Salaries though are paid by the universities involved - Salford (prof. Stephen Martin, Biologist) and Plymouth Marine Institute (prof. Declan Schoeder, Virologist).

Samples from 5 colonies per association collected in April and September will be tested for type A (thought to be responsible for year-round deaths, type B (harmless type) and type C (thought to be responsible for winter losses).

If the sampling correlates to actual losses, then the second stage of the project is to look at how this might be used to protect bees. (For example, could queens be infected with type B and distributed).

The way type B protects is by 'super infection exclusion'. In other words, the bees have so much type B that any small amounts of type A are eradicated by recombination between A and B.

Fascinating early research and definitely a reason for optimism.

Thank you for that very interesting.

In the meantime DWV is the greatest cause of winter losses in this country and it can stand alone it does not need varroa as a vector. However, it replicates in varroa and varroa has a much higher viral load now then when it first arrived in this country and it does vector other diseases such as CBPV, Sacbrood, Acute Bee Paralysis Virus. If you are treating it is important to do so early enough so that the generation which is producing the winter bees is 'healthy'.

Other points that has come up in this very interesting thread - Australia does not have varroa, but SHB which is why we can't import bees from there whilst New Zealand has varroa, but not SHB.

Braula Coeca is thought to have been killed off or reduced to insignificant numbers as a result of varroa treatments.

AFB is a spore forming bacterium. Excuse my ignorance but are there spore forming viruses?

Is there any evidence that bees groom off varroa?

 

[Erichalfbee]

And there is this I spotted on FB this morning
LASI is pleased to annouce the new exciting LASI Queen Bees project! Supplying LASI queens reared from gentle, productive, near black, fully hygienically-tested queens. The 'LASI Queen Bees' website containing more information will be in operation shortly .

 

[Excession]

Passenger pigeons had a huge population, but they never become resistant to gun shot.

This +1.

 

[domino]

Would be handy if you could infect the bees with the type B virus - but I assume they'd need to be free of the type A first