Hygienic bees beating varroa - a myth?

[TryingToLetThemBee]

And there is this I spotted on FB this morning
LASI is pleased to annouce the new exciting LASI Queen Bees project! Supplying LASI queens reared from gentle, productive, near black, fully hygienically-tested queens. The 'LASI Queen Bees' website containing more information will be in operation shortly .

I'd check the dateline on that one for 11 days ago...

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

The upside is that evolutionary biology also shows us that just as mites can evolve resistance to treatment, both viruses and bees will coevolve to minimise the lethality (more mites/viruses spread from living rather than dead colonies) and that we can help things along by selective breeding.

...and not treating. As was cited on here recently, treating selects for lethal mites/viruses, so we cannot achieve parasite/host equilibrium as we are currently set up.

 

[Cussword]

And there is this I spotted on FB this morning
LASI is pleased to annouce the new exciting LASI Queen Bees project! Supplying LASI queens reared from gentle, productive, near black, fully hygienically-tested queens. The 'LASI Queen Bees' website containing more information will be in operation shortly .

Where could find that? Please

 

[mjt68]

...and not treating. As was cited on here recently, treating selects for lethal mites/viruses, so we cannot achieve parasite/host equilibrium as we are currently set up.

What you say is true but the short-term result will be a loss of colonies as those with the most lethal mites/viruses and least resistant bees die out. Great in the long run, but not for the beeks whose bees die. Any people who don't sign up to no treatment have colonies which can act as a reservoir of nasty mites/viruses both undoing any gains won and threatening the colonies of non-treaters.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'd check the dateline on that one for 11 days ago...

Posted on the LASI site, yesterday.
Are you saying this is an April Fool?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Firstly, and very importantly, OA is not 100% effective. Some mites always survive, it is reasonable to assume these may include those more resistant to the effects of OA. OA can be over 98% effective when there is zero brood in the hive, but just a bit of brood brings that number down. Repeated treatments will be more effective, but 100% kill seems unachievable. Remember they don't have to become completely resistant to it,

It depends how the resistance is manifest. I gather oxalic just physically damages the mites.
If you stand behind a wall as somebody flame throws it you will be fine but if you step in front of it you're fried.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Posted on the LASI site, yesterday.

Are you saying this is an April Fool?

So I guess not. Wow.


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[TryingToLetThemBee]

What you say is true but the short-term result will be a loss of colonies as those with the most lethal mites/viruses and least resistant bees die out. Great in the long run, but not for the beeks whose bees die. Any people who don't sign up to no treatment have colonies which can act as a reservoir of nasty mites/viruses both undoing any gains won and threatening the colonies of non-treaters.

Yes, so never gonna happen.


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[BeeJayBee]

I really can't see mites evolving to live alongside OA in the short to medium term - perhaps over millennia - but in the meantime I really think it's the best shot we have at the mites - and reducing mite numbers on an organised national basis at an agreed point in time STILL looks attractive to me.

Millennia?

How long did it take mites to become resistant to Bayvarol and Apistan? These two were deadly to the mites, but in a different way from OA. The problems were caused by too many beekeepers using multiple treatments of the same chemical, or leaving the stuff in the hive for too long. The mites won the battle, and seem to be able to quickly resurrect their ability to deal with it because the ones that didn't die have some latent resistance.

OA will never kill all the mites, we already acknowledge that. Those that don't get killed are survivors and they are the ones that breed and reinfest the colonies. How long before they win the OA battle? They will adapt far quicker than the bees ever can, because their generations are so much shorter.

 

[Hivemaker.]

...and not treating.

Too many colonies would die out, at too great a cost, so no.
Bees deserve to be helped out same as any other creature, including ourselves.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Too many colonies would die out, at too great a cost, so no.
Bees deserve to be helped out same as any other creature, including ourselves.

Yes, as I said, not gonna happen so I for one will continue to treat.


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[jenkinsbrynmair]

More or less what Prof Martin said as well

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well, it's time for me to come clean.
I have had very low varroa on the inspection trays all last year and the figure was reflected in my sugar rolls so I decided to try to leave off treating. The levels suddenly started increasing in autumn and I lost my nerve so started vaping in September. The mite drops were horrendous.
I have as a result of this lost three of the five colonies. One is dead and the others two are very weak. The queens are laying small amounts and one has a sealed supecedure cell.
The remaining two that had equally bad drops are bursting with life. Now what do I do!!!!!!??

 

[Tremyfro]

Well, it's time for me to come clean.
I have had very low varroa on the inspection trays all last year and the figure was reflected in my sugar rolls so I decided to try to leave off treating. The levels suddenly started increasing in autumn and I lost my nerve so started vaping in September. The mite drops were horrendous.
I have as a result of this lost three of the five colonies. One is dead and the others two are very weak. The queens are laying small amounts and one has a sealed supecedure cell.
The remaining two that had equally bad drops are bursting with life. Now what do I do!!!!!!??

It's a step into the unknown isn't it. I hover on the brink of a non- treatment regime but fear the loss of my colonies. Going into winter all mine were treated...I still lost 3 colonies...even though none had high drop counts, except one. I think they were lost from queen failure but I don't know for sure. One beekeeper at the BBKA Show suggested they may not have been able to collect enough pollen due to poor weather and their stores of pollen weren't sufficient. I don't know. There was no brood seen in two colonies and a tiny patch in one of them.
Perhaps the colonies you have left are the keepers in regard to varroa...if they are doing well despite having high counts when you treated them. Perhaps you can go non-treatment with those colonies?

 

[B+.]

The remaining two that had equally bad drops are bursting with life. Now what do I do!!!!!!??

If you could control the breeding of the next generation, I would suggest that you breed from those two. However, if you are reliant on natural mating, any trait that may be developed could easily be diluted/lost altogether.
I haven't treated for many years and have lost lots of colonies in the process. It is tough going and the mite count can go up one week and down the next so it is important to do it over 3-6 weeks (i.e. 1-2 worker brood cycles).
I should add that HM is right: the cost of losing colonies can be high. I will be starting a breeding project in the summer and have been asked to treat these colonies as they are too valuable to lose in the early stage of the programme. This is a bit of a bitter pill for me to swallow since I have been treatment free for so long, but, this project brings fantastic opportunities that I'd be a fool to pass up on.

 

[pargyle]

Millennia?

How long did it take mites to become resistant to Bayvarol and Apistan? These two were deadly to the mites, but in a different way from OA. The problems were caused by too many beekeepers using multiple treatments of the same chemical, or leaving the stuff in the hive for too long. The mites won the battle, and seem to be able to quickly resurrect their ability to deal with it because the ones that didn't die have some latent resistance.

OA will never kill all the mites, we already acknowledge that. Those that don't get killed are survivors and they are the ones that breed and reinfest the colonies. How long before they win the OA battle? They will adapt far quicker than the bees ever can, because their generations are so much shorter.

But the aromatic miticides work by effectively poisoning the mites, like many poisons (rat bait for instance - or even human antibiotics and bee venom) low level doses over a long period of time can build up immunity in the species exposed to the pressure and rapidly evolving species such as mites/fruit flies will develop an immunity, or at least resistance, very quickly. The 'poison' ingested will either kill or accustom the species to live with it .. the lower the dose and the longer the exposure the more likely the resistance will occur. Oddly, whilst everyone accepts this evolutionary ability to occur it is the same principle upon which homeopathic medicine works ... which many deride as smoke and mirrors !!! Bit of a dichotomy there ?

The difference between OA and the aromatic miticides is that OA acts by actually damaging the mites extremities and mandibles ... how can an organism such as Varroa build up an immunity, in the short to medium term, to something that physically damages their exoskeleton ? They would need to develop armour plating an whilst I accept that this is potentially possible, as I said, it would take millenia to happen. OA by sublimiation is only in the hive for a relatively short period of treatment and intermittently so there is not the constant pressure required for evolution.

Hence, I would suggest, that universal treatment with OA by sublimation at a point in time would NOT create the immunity issue that some people here fear and would result in a universal mite knock down that could do nothing but good for our bees.

But .. with the resistance to change we find in the beekeeping community and the dogma that is perpetuated - even by our National Association .. it ain't gonna happen ... Pity really.

 

[pargyle]

.
The remaining two that had equally bad drops are bursting with life. Now what do I do!!!!!!??

Keep the faith .. breed from them and try again. You know you want to ! I have had huge spikes in a couple of my colonies and it was so tempting to reach for the varrox but I held off and the drops reduced and all six colonies have come through winter and are looking very healthy at present. I do accept that there is a degree of luck involved ...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

But the aromatic miticides work by effectively poisoning the mites, like many poisons (rat bait for instance - or even human antibiotics and bee venom) low level doses over a long period of time can build up immunity in the species exposed to the pressure and rapidly evolving species such as mites/fruit flies will develop an immunity, or at least resistance, very quickly. The 'poison' ingested will either kill or accustom the species to live with it .. the lower the dose and the longer the exposure the more likely the resistance will occur. Oddly, whilst everyone accepts this evolutionary ability to occur it is the same principle upon which homeopathic medicine works ... which many deride as smoke and mirrors !!! Bit of a dichotomy there ?

The difference between OA and the aromatic miticides is that OA acts by actually damaging the mites extremities and mandibles ... how can an organism such as Varroa build up an immunity, in the short to medium term, to something that physically damages their exoskeleton ? They would need to develop armour plating an whilst I accept that this is potentially possible, as I said, it would take millenia to happen. OA by sublimiation is only in the hive for a relatively short period of treatment and intermittently so there is not the constant pressure required for evolution.

Hence, I would suggest, that universal treatment with OA by sublimation at a point in time would NOT create the immunity issue that some people here fear and would result in a universal mite knock down that could do nothing but good for our bees.

But .. with the resistance to change we find in the beekeeping community and the dogma that is perpetuated - even by our National Association .. it ain't gonna happen ... Pity really.

 

[MuswellMetro]

Millennia?

EDIT...

OA will never kill all the mites, we already acknowledge that. Those that don't get killed are survivors and they are the ones that breed and reinfest the colonies. How long before they win the OA battle? They will adapt far quicker than the bees ever can, because their generations are so much shorter.

i just wonder if we are seeing this already, the natural varroa drop calculator of the NBU now seems to predict a lower mite level that the actual mite level on treatment

i wonder if oxalic and thymol treatments which only kill phoretic mites are selecting mites that have a shorter phoretic stage so able to hide in the brood and evade the varroacides

 

[mjt68]

i just wonder if we are seeing this already, the natural varroa drop calculator of the NBU now seems to predict a lower mite level that the actual mite level on treatment

i wonder if oxalic and thymol treatments which only kill phoretic mites are selecting mites that have a shorter phoretic stage so able to hide in the brood and evade the varroacides

You may be right. As for OA, I think the method of action is a bit of a red herring. A thicker exoskeleton or one with a different chemical makeup might offer a bit of resistance. It only needs to be a few % increase in the probability of survival, not complete and immediate immunity.

I think it's reasonable to suppose that there is natural variation in mite size, cuticle thickness/hardness or chemical makeup or any number of life history traits (where in the hive mites prefer to hang out for example) and natural selection can act on this standing variation in one of more of these traits to give mites with increased resistance to OA. This needn't take millennia and could easily happen in our lifetimes. It will be slowed as the selection pressure of OA is only applied to occasional generations of mites, but if OA is used as several points in the year, resistance will arise more quickly.