How to close for winter

[stephenpug]

Hi could someone please advise me
Do I put fondant on top of the cluster in the brood box followed by a small 2" eke followed by a sheet of kingspan/polystyrene followed by the crown board and finally the roof (it's only easy if you know how lol) they are wooden national hives THANKS

 

[VEG]

The kingspan should go on top of the crown board.
You can put the fondant on top of the frames but if we have a couple of warm days the fondant can fall down in between the frames and make a hell of a mess. If I need to use fondant I put it on top of the crown board over a feed hole.

 

[stephenpug]

Thankyou so it's crownboard Fondant eke kingfish roof (my first year so I want to get it right )

 

[stephenpug]

Kingspan

 

[oliver90owner]

Do I put fondant on top of the cluster in the brood box

My first question is: Why are you feeding fondant at this stage?

Sheer madness IMO, if the brood box is full of stores. If so, they will consume the fondant in preference to the comb stores and be full of sugar syrup in the spring. That may well lead to brood space congestion and 'knock on' to a weaker colony (slowed spring expansion) or early swarming due to a congested brood box.

A full deep box is generally enough to get them through the winter and into spring expansion stages before any extra feed is necesary. That can be 1:1 syrup, if required -which amongst other things is cheaper than fondant.

Choice is yours, all the same, but I do suggest you give things a little more thought before posting as though this is the 'norm' for overwintering bees. Some new beeks are bound to misinterpret the thread and automatically think they have to feed fondant in the autumn.

 

[BILL.HEARD]

Do I put fondant on top of the cluster in the brood box

My first question is: Why are you feeding fondant at this stage?

Sheer madness IMO, if the brood box is full of stores. If so, they will consume the fondant in preference to the comb stores and be full of sugar syrup in the spring. That may well lead to brood space congestion and 'knock on' to a weaker colony (slowed spring expansion) or early swarming due to a congested brood box.

A full deep box is generally enough to get them through the winter and into spring expansion stages before any extra feed is necesary. That can be 1:1 syrup, if required -which amongst other things is cheaper than fondant.

Choice is yours, all the same, but I do suggest you give things a little more thought before posting as though this is the 'norm' for overwintering bees. Some new beeks are bound to misinterpret the thread and automatically think they have to feed fondant in the autumn.

 

[stephenpug]

I have asked the question as a first year bee keeper,I don't want to get it wrong,the point of a forum is to ask such questions for help and advise not to be met with sarcasm as in this case ,I think this response is why new bee keepers don't ask and why a lot leave these forums altogether

 

[Poly Hive]

What sarcasm where? None I can read.

Oliver is making though some good points that you would do well to ponder.

If you inadvertently over feed then its pretty simple to remove a couple of stores combs in Spring and give foundation to give the queen room or bruise the stores with your hive tool to help her get the room to expand.

PH

 

[BeeJayBee]

Stephen - some beekeepers only ever feed fondant, some only ever feed with syrup.

You'll find what works best for you and your bees, and will probably stick with it. Our bees were brought through last winter on fondant, so this year they are being given fondant.

I don't know if these links be broken by the site software.

This shows various options - including using a moistened bag of sugar. (if link breaks google Edinburgh beekeepers winter feeds)
http://www.edinburghbeekeepers.org.uk/winter_feeds.html

This shows feeding a large slab of fondant ((if link breaks google Stratford beekeepers fondant)
http://www.stratfordbeekeepers.org.uk/PENotes/Fondant.htm

You don't have to use an eke, you can use a super and pack the space with almost any sort of insulation - bubble wrap, a 99p shop space blanket, kingspan, newspaper etc.

 

[stephenpug]

Stephen - some beekeepers only ever feed fondant, some only ever feed with syrup.

You'll find what works best for you and your bees, and will probably stick with it. Our bees were brought through last winter on fondant, so this year they are being given fondant.

I don't know if these links be broken by the site software.

This shows various options - including using a moistened bag of sugar. (if link breaks google Edinburgh beekeepers winter feeds)
http://www.edinburghbeekeepers.org.uk/winter_feeds.html

This shows feeding a large slab of fondant ((if link breaks google Stratford beekeepers fondant)
http://www.stratfordbeekeepers.org.uk/PENotes/Fondant.htm

You don't have to use an eke, you can use a super and pack the space with almost any sort of insulation - bubble wrap, a 99p shop space blanket, kingspan, newspaper etc.

thanks it is just that there is so many points of view a bit of a minefield to a new bee keeper so confusing that i dont want to get it wrong and give my bees the best chance as they are living things i would hate to be responsible for their death thru ignorance thanks again

 

[itma]

thanks it is just that there is so many points of view a bit of a minefield to a new bee keeper so confusing that i dont want to get it wrong and give my bees the best chance as they are living things i would hate to be responsible for their death thru ignorance thanks again

Best thing is to get food in before it gets too cold. (And strong syrup is simplest)

With a single-brood national, they cannot take too much.
You should have about 8 brood frames-ful (totally idealised 100% full, not just as full as you'd ever see them) to get to 40lb/20kg of stores as recommended. Normally this will be more spread out, so estimate the % and add them up.
If you've got that much stores in place, relax.
Feel the weight of the hive. Feel the weight through the winter and only worry if it feels seriously light.
If you ever think it feels 'so light it must be nearly empty', then you can add fondant - even in midwinter.

On the other hand, if its too cold for the bees to take syrup (let them tell you) and for whatever reason you don't yet have enough stored away in the hive, add some fondant right then.

Those are the conventional ways.


A minority view is to give fondant ahead of winter, whether it is needed or not.
That may reduce the chance of the colony starving, but, on the other hand, there is the risk that the brood box may not be sufficiently emptied for Spring's population explosion - and the common consequence is swarming.

You have to steer a middle path - providing an excessively comfortable stock of winter stores can be as bad beekeeping as running them short!


How much stores do you have in the hive right now?

 

[drex]

SP - Ask two beekeepers and you will get 3 answers.

Generally I feed as much 2:1 syrup as I can to ensure they have adequate stores before I bed them in for winter. If on routine checking by hefting during the winter they feel light, then I will give them a slab of fondant.

It is a balancing act, to make sure they have enough stores going in to winter, but not too early so that HM does not have room to lay the winter bees.

If you get it wrong then you can always bung on fondant at any time. In my first couple of years I was not very experienced at judging weight by hefting, so I used a spring balance to estimate the weight of hive, and plotted the decrease. I had weighed an almost empty hive before starting the feeding to give me an idea of the bottom line.

Generally feedback on this forum is good, but remember we all have different styles of "helping" each other.

 

[oliver90owner]

sarcasm as in this case

Don't know about sarcasm. You got an honest direct response to your post.

As I said, take it or leave it - your choice. But if you want to learn anything about beekeeping you need to think about things a bit more seriously. Your better questions might have been by starting at the beginning such as : Should I feed fondant now (at closing down time)? If so, how?

But some new beeks already know all about it except where the crownboard goes on the hive. See my point?

 

[Drew]

sarcasm as in this case

Don't know about sarcasm. You got an honest direct response to your post.

As I said, take it or leave it - your choice. But if you want to learn anything about beekeeping you need to think about things a bit more seriously. Your better questions might have been by starting at the beginning such as : Should I feed fondant now (at closing down time? If so, how?

But some new beeks already know all about it except where the crownboard goes on the hive. See my point?

I agree - I didn't detect ANY sarcasm at all!

 

[Poly Hive]

FWIW I have already fed some fondant as I had it handy, and now spent the afternoon making up two to one syrup to keep them busy while I await the delivery of more fondant. I am feeding gently to use up sugar that had gone damp, and it needed using to get it out the road.

I see no issues with feeding fondant at this time and my bees have vanished that that they have been fed already.

Further from todays experience, backed by long experience, I can assure you that fondant is a LOT less messy than making syrup is.

PH

 

[stephenpug]

Out of my 4 hives only one is taking down the 2/1 syrup which I will continue to feed in the short term as it's getting quite heavy to lift,I have one hive that is very heavy and won't take syrup.but I am not worried about this one, the othe two hive are quite light but won't take any syrup but will take fondant,these are.the two I am worrying about and was thinking about closing them down with a lump of fondant on each,the price of fondant agains the price of sugar is not an issue I just want to do what is best for the bees,also they are all very busy today bringing in loads of bright yellow and light grey pollen

 

[itma]

Stephenpug, if they won't take the syrup, but are still taking in stuff from outside, I'd be wondering about the feeder.

As it gets colder, a rapid-type (up and over), becomes less attractive to the bees.

A contact feeder or even a frame feeder should be usable later in the season.




/ or they might just prefer the real stuff!

 

[stephenpug]

Stephenpug, if they won't take the syrup, but are still taking in stuff from outside, I'd be wondering about the feeder.

As it gets colder, a rapid-type (up and over), becomes less attractive to the bees.

A contact feeder or even a frame feeder should be usable later in the season.




/ or they might just prefer the real stuff!

I am feeding or trying to feed with the upturned bucket with holes in lol but they are just not interested,but the take the fondant no trouble at all

 

[Swarm]

Depends on how much they have of their own stores and how much of it, if any, you removed. They may have adequate stores and not require any feeding, not sure what it's like with you but mine are still piling in from the Balsam.
I prefer not to feed if possible and generally just keep some fondant for emergencies. Let the weight of the hive be your guide

 

[adrian wilford]

only feed fondant later on, if they are short of stores, the weather is cold and if the cluster is tight, so the fondandant is directly above the bees, so they dont have to break away from the cluster. The reason is, they eat the fondant rather than use it for stores,
My kingspan is glued into the hive roofs on a permanent basis.