Honey vs syrup & over wintering

[Goran]

G.F. Taranov - Food and feeding of honey bees.. Thanks for reviving the thread, now I will reread again this book..

 

[Ely]

I see it as this some colonys need the extra sugar supplement otherwise they wouldn't get through the winter.
We take there honey supplies for our own consumption and then there's bad weather a dearth for weeks.
Do you dicide to feed the honey you have collected from the supers and feed it back to them or do you take minimal honey and leave them half of the supers, this is OK if your a hobbyist but if its a business maybe there is two different aspects or ways at looking at it??
I've noticed some times colonys will store minimal honey in the brood box and put it all in the supers and visa versa filling the brood and putting honey in the supers last..
Im slowly becoming a bee farmer and to me sugar is a colony saver, stimulant and has helped save many a colony.
To feed only honey I would be feeding most of what I extract back to the bees.
To me there has to be a difference between hobbest and bee farmer. Ie the way you feed treat and in some ways look after your bees.

Hi. Are you growing your bee farming alongside full time work? I'm interested in time management as I would like to do something similar eventually.
Thanks
Simon

 

[Dods bisyssla]

Hello,
this simple question seems, strangely enough, not to have been answered in any field study. I have read hundreds of studies but they all have in common that they mostly are carried out in lab environmental or the target was to determine the best supplement to honey without including honey to the study as a baseline. I do have two studies to share - one that tested life span of bees and found that honey gave the longest lifespan.http://www.resistantbees.com/fotos/estudio/feeding.pdf. Its a labtest but it was carried out over three years and also tested the impact of the different feeds on the mid gut and showed honey to be best, pure sugar syrup 2nd best and the more things mixed in the syrup the more damage to the midgut and hence shorter lifespan. The 2nd study checked the impact of different supplement diets on the gene expression and, again, all supplements gave (detrimental) changes compared to honey. https://www.nature.com/articles/srep05726. But a real field study have, to my knowledge, not been carried out and therefore we will start one next season.
On the other hand, there are so many myth and "common knowledge" that needs to be debunked; I saw several in the answers further down; Fex someone gave the old argument that heather and honey dew have high ash content and hence not suitable as winter food (should cause dysentery) - any study supporting that claim one might ask? The answer is, again, no not to my knowledge. The fact is that a study done allready in 1935 by researcher Alfonsos determined that no food by itself caused dysentery, the only topic that have any impact was the issue to get rid of water and if the food had chrystallized and "splitted" the food in one "water" and one solid portion then the risk for dysentery was much higher. The ash content was of no relevance since it never gave any higher content in the guts - he carried out his studies over several years in real field conditions. This study cant be find on the net but if you want it then contact us on our blog. WordPress.com. It is also quite easy to calculate a theorethical value and see that indeed it will never be any critical amounts. Use 15 kg and 15000 bees and the hindgut can have 30% of the body weight before the amount of feces will give issues, at 45% dysentery will be a fact - according to Alfonsos study.
Just to confirm his study we carried out a test 2 years ago with 50% heather honey as winterfood (all 9 hives came out super strong) and this year we have one hive on 100% heather and compare it to 100% summer honey. We weigh the hives every month to determine food consumption and next season we will follow these hives and see if there are any differencies in the performance during the summer. Another common argument is that "I have always done this way and it works". What they really mean is that I have always done this way and I always get the same result and I am happy with it. But are winterlosses of 15-20% a good result? And some claim that if I give the bees 15-20 kg of honey for the winter then I get nothing for myself. Is 20-25 kg a good result? I would argue no to both these questions and if you are interested to know more then pls let me know. As a teaser we let our 13 hives have 260 kg of honey for this winter and we still got more than enough for ourselfes even if only 7-8 were production units. Furthermore, we go through many of the myths and check if there are scientific evidence to support and in most cases they are thoroughly debunked.
cheers
Mikael

Honey vs sugar

There are several reasons why it's good management to use Honey instead of sugar for the bees, beside the obvious fact that it is what the bees have developed during millions of years.
1. How do one guarantee that no sugar traces will contaminate the honey? And the truth is that it is really hard to be 100% sure that the bees do not move the sugar into the super during the first flow. The bees will use half filled sugar combs to produce new broods and these frames will normally be left in the hives when the nectar starts to flow with a high risk that some of it will be moved to the super. One can argue that the filled frames are removed and that we are really careful with the combs left but the truth is, unless colored syrup is used, there is always a risk for sugar contamination. To me the only guarantee is to never use saccharide in the hives.
2. When only honey is used the useful flow season is automatically at least two month longer. In our area, south of Sweden, the nectar flow starts in late april early May, depending on the weather, with an abundance of different spring flowers; fruit trees, bushes, berries and a whole lot of other flowers. For the same reason, the risk of sugar contamination, the honey collected in late april and may can't be used since there will be sugar left in the hives until the sugar combs are removed. This can't normally be done until the weather is stable, and there is no guarantee that May will be warm, and hence removing food combs in May is a high risk. Consequently no honey can be used from that period without the risk for sugar contamination. Same thing in the autumn, once the sugar feed has been given no more honey can be used. This year we have two test hives where we weigh the hives every month to track food consumption and so far, after we gave them the winter stores of honey in early September, they have increased 5 kg which means they probably will have food left over in the spring. Since we only have honey in the hives we can either extract a really late autumn crop or an early crop of spring honey instead of wasting it as "suspicious sugar contaminated product". Furthermore, the process of feeding sugar takes a minimum two weeks, perhaps longer. First the sugar must be collected by the bees - from our sugar period we remember that this took about 1 week. Then, the bees must process the sugar in order to bring down the water level and invert it to mono-sackarides. During this period less bees are available for foraging while honey fed bees can continue to collect honey and pollen, as we have seen they do in our test hives.
3. We hear some beekeepers claim that if we give 15-20 kg back to the bees then there will be virtually nothing left. I have read the original book of Langstroth from 1850's as well as a later edition from 1949 and at that time there were no discussions about using sugar as anything as a last resort in a time of dearth. In fact, it is specifically mentioned that the bees need the honey during winter in order to create strong hives that give big crops. Here is the link for those who want to read this classical:
https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.233929/2015.233929.The-Hive_djvu.txtThere are many references in this book and they claim, with test hives, that average crop of up to 100 kg or more per hive is reasonable while today, according to worldwide statistics, we get 25-35 kg as average crop. What happened? One may argue that Varroa came and that has reduced the average crop. Varroa does impact but it is, in our humble opinion, manageable, we will argue that the sugar management plays a bigger role. As an example, as shown in point 2, the usable forage time is prolonged with honey feed strategy. In addition, I totally agree with Langstroth and Dadant (who wrote the editions in 1910-30) that bees that are fed honey during the winter come out stronger than the ones fed with sugar. Unfortunately, to my knowledge there are no comparison tests and hence no scientific evidence except what Langstroth, Dadant and the other old books tell and their documented test hives with honey that, as told, shows the crop to be 100 kg or more. In addition the files we have kept over the years, shows a big difference when honey was used compared to when only sugar was used. We have always given the bees honey and our average results over the years are between 50-70 kg per hive (we have one forest apiary and one city apiary with agriculture present which gives better results in kg).

I will add the next in another post since I ran out of characters
cheers
Mikael
www.dodsbisyssla.com

 

[Dods bisyssla]

Honey vs sugar

There are several reasons why it's good management to use Honey instead of sugar for the bees, beside the obvious fact that it is what the bees have developed during millions of years.
1. How do one guarantee that no sugar traces will contaminate the honey? And the truth is that it is really hard to be 100% sure that the bees do not move the sugar into the super during the first flow. The bees will use half filled sugar combs to produce new broods and these frames will normally be left in the hives when the nectar starts to flow with a high risk that some of it will be moved to the super. One can argue that the filled frames are removed and that we are really careful with the combs left but the truth is, unless colored syrup is used, there is always a risk for sugar contamination. To me the only guarantee is to never use saccharide in the hives.
2. When only honey is used the useful flow season is automatically at least two month longer. In our area, south of Sweden, the nectar flow starts in late april early May, depending on the weather, with an abundance of different spring flowers; fruit trees, bushes, berries and a whole lot of other flowers. For the same reason, the risk of sugar contamination, the honey collected in late april and may can't be used since there will be sugar left in the hives until the sugar combs are removed. This can't normally be done until the weather is stable, and there is no guarantee that May will be warm, and hence removing food combs in May is a high risk. Consequently no honey can be used from that period without the risk for sugar contamination. Same thing in the autumn, once the sugar feed has been given no more honey can be used. This year we have two test hives where we weigh the hives every month to track food consumption and so far, after we gave them the winter stores of honey in early September, they have increased 5 kg which means they probably will have food left over in the spring. Since we only have honey in the hives we can either extract a really late autumn crop or an early crop of spring honey instead of wasting it as "suspicious sugar contaminated product". Furthermore, the process of feeding sugar takes a minimum two weeks, perhaps longer. First the sugar must be collected by the bees - from our sugar period we remember that this took about 1 week. Then, the bees must process the sugar in order to bring down the water level and invert it to mono-sackarides. During this period less bees are available for foraging while honey fed bees can continue to collect honey and pollen, as we have seen they do in our test hives.
3. We hear some beekeepers claim that if we give 15-20 kg back to the bees then there will be virtually nothing left. I have read the original book of Langstroth from 1850's as well as a later edition from 1949 and at that time there were no discussions about using sugar as anything as a last resort in a time of dearth. In fact, it is specifically mentioned that the bees need the honey during winter in order to create strong hives that give big crops. Here is the link for those who want to read this classical:
https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.233929/2015.233929.The-Hive_djvu.txtThere are many references in this book and they claim, with test hives, that average crop of up to 100 kg or more per hive is reasonable while today, according to worldwide statistics, we get 25-35 kg as average crop. What happened? One may argue that Varroa came and that has reduced the average crop. Varroa does impact but it is, in our humble opinion, manageable, we will argue that the sugar management plays a bigger role. As an example, as shown in point 2, the usable forage time is prolonged with honey feed strategy. In addition, I totally agree with Langstroth and Dadant (who wrote the editions in 1910-30) that bees that are fed honey during the winter come out stronger than the ones fed with sugar. Unfortunately, to my knowledge there are no comparison tests and hence no scientific evidence except what Langstroth, Dadant and the other old books tell and their documented test hives with honey that, as told, shows the crop to be 100 kg or more. In addition the files we have kept over the years, shows a big difference when honey was used compared to when only sugar was used. We have always given the bees honey and our average results over the years are between 50-70 kg per hive (we have one forest apiary and one city apiary with agriculture present which gives better results in kg).

I will add the next in another post since I ran out of characters
cheers
Mikael
www.dodsbisyssla.com

continue the post

4. I read somewhere a quote "that the person who does what he loves to do does not work one hour in his life". It's a very good quote and we try to integrate that in our bee management strategy and hence try to remove all boring and tedious work. Consequently we try to avoid certain jobs; put your hand to your heart and tell me that the sugar job in autumn is fun. This year we went from 50 % honey to 100% honey and it is the best decision ever since we didnt have to carry home 130 kg sugar (260 kg if 100% sugar to be used), we didn't spend evenings mixing the sugar syrup, we didn't go out late evenings to feed the sugar, we didn't clean the sugar supers afterwards and we didn't have to wait for late hives to conusme the sugar. That alone is worth a few kg of honey if it comes to that. But what was really the "cost" of going 100% honey? BTW, some people mix up the concepts and think that the honey given to the bees is a cost. In fact it is not a cost, it should be seen as investment in bee health and in future crops - you would not consider replace the fuel with water in the van and see it as a "cost saving" . And, since the variable cost of honey is basically zero (contrary to sugar), its not a cost at all. It might be a lost future sales but that is only an issue if one sells more than what is produced.


Well, we had to add 4 frames of honey per hive (about 6-8 kg) since they had plenty of honey that we couldn't use anyways - partly filled combs, non closed cells. As I already mentioned the bees have collected 5kg in september-october which means we have only given a net 3 kg. We have no doubt that we will get those kg's back in may, but even if we don't we saved several hours of really boring work which is reward enough.


5. Since we don't have to buy sugar we actually save money - 260 kg x 1 pound is 260 pounds that we do not have to spend. If we need more honey then we can use that money and invest in one more hive, easy peasy.
6. Beekeepers are often, and quite rightly so, proud of being a fighter for the local environment since pollinators are so important. But, the Halo does fit somewhat badly if one starts to think of the environmental footprint that the sugar replacement really means. I made a quick calculation and realized that the sugar we use in tiny Sweden to replace honey takes up 35 hectare of land. If instead those hectars would have been used for rye then 6000 tons could have been produced - in a starving world that is a bit offensive, in my humble opinion (and yes rye works well instead of sugar beets in the farming cycle). Just consider what it means on a global scale. On top of that pesticides are heavily used, at least in sugar beets production, and it also uses up loads of energy - all to replace something that the bees already produce, and of a better quality. In fact, we have started to use this as an argument why our honey is a better choice than the one produced by replacing the honey with sugar. And believe it or not - when we mention it to customers they are usually shocked to hear that bees are fed sugar instead of honey and then they prefer to buy from us. The price of the honey is then suddenly secondary.

7. There is a myth, at least here in Sweden, that bees are more aggressive in the autumn. We dismiss that claim 100%. In our experience bees that have plenty of food are not aggressive or prone to robbing other hives. When feeding sugar usually most honey is removed and then the bees feel they are totally out of food and for them it is a catastrophe - they start to desperate find food which leads to robbing and aggresiveness. Our bees are never out of food and consequently they are as gentle in september as they were in may - we have plenty of movies that shows that the bees of nearby hives dont care that we give honey combs in september. Unfortunately they were too big to post here.
Hope this gives some thoughts for those who would like to try to go 100% honey - it works at least for us.
Any questions ple feel free to address them.
cheers

Mikael
www.dodsbisyssla.com

 

[B_north]

Where in Canada are you located and how long is the winter if I may ask?

I am in north central Sask. with -22C nights already for the last week, and over a foot of snow. The first frost in the fall which kills all the nectar producing plants is the last week in Sept., I am in Canola country but I am also smack up against the northern Boreal Forest and hope, in the future to take advantage of the isolation to try a few TF bee experiments.

Last year I did not unwrap the hives until mid May. We may get some pollen in late April and we may not, sometimes it snows on May 22 our last hard spring frost can be as late as June 15. But our main flow comes fast and heavy with no dearth in between and our bees build up quickly. I have a swarm problem because of the quick increase so swarm management is a must.

The bees do a few winter cleansing flights, but IMO, it is more of a suicide mission than a cleansing flight. I track each one just for interest marking down day and temperatures. The lack of moisture within our hives is a concern and some have linked it to the increased suicide flights of bees that are desiccated and desperate for water. We are told to have a top entrance to let out moisture but it also can be too dry in our low humidity winters and the top entrances also let out too much heat increasing the food consumption and also the need for cleansing flights, round and round we go blaming one thing and then another.

I run deep Layens/Ukrainian hives, I made my own and the frames, as well as supers that hold only 8 short frames so I can manage them.

Maybe there is room for me to leave some honey in these supers on one hive for the winter and test what happens, more or less cleansing flights, size of spring cluster and feed remaining. Something to consider as I have never been a person that does things just because it has always been done so.

 

[Dods bisyssla]

HI There

wow, seems you have a mission impossible to have bees there
Anyways, according a study quoted in Randy's survey regarding dysentery no openings in the top should be used (I rephrased this to be in line with the scientific evidence). The test was carried out with water condensators and the vast majority of the air goes downwards - the bees fan the humid air downwards so the opening should be at bottom. The report I read showed that 97% of the water was condensated at the bottom and if you think about it - if humid really would go upwards it would put water in the honey/food and make it useless. Also, one would get mould in the top combs from all the humidity so dont listen to the old and wise - they are, again, wrong. If you want I will find you the report where this was tested. So, ventilation is good but it should be placed in the bottom. In our hives we have a meshed hole in the bottom which also means that if snow covers the fluster then no issue - the bees get air from the meshed hole. This hole is also used to collect and count mite fall during summer,
good luck

cheers

Mikael

 

[B_north]

wow, seems you have a mission impossible to have bees there

Actually no, we had a very successful honey producer just 3 miles north of us until he retired and about 200km west is a town that is our greatest producer of honey in the province. The huge quick flow and the ability to winter bees, as opposed to the past when they used to just take the honey and dump the bees in the snow, has created a good living for some local producers.

It is home and what we know so we deal with it, no big problem. I would rather the cold than the heat as in some places and a long broodless period for the bees is not a bad thing when it comes to varroa.

I would like to read the condensation study thanks, I only have bottom openings now, it is my first winter set up this way so my fingers are crossed. I will warn you though I am not a scientist so some of the study might be above my head

 

[Dods bisyssla]

Actually no, we had a very successful honey producer just 3 miles north of us until he retired and about 200km west is a town that is our greatest producer of honey in the province. The huge quick flow and the ability to winter bees, as opposed to the past when they used to just take the honey and dump the bees in the snow, has created a good living for some local producers.

It is home and what we know so we deal with it, no big problem. I would rather the cold than the heat as in some places and a long broodless period for the bees is not a bad thing when it comes to varroa.

I would like to read the condensation study thanks, I only have bottom openings now, it is my first winter set up this way so my fingers are crossed. I will warn you though I am not a scientist so some of the study might be above my head

hi the study was in the package from Randy regarding dysentery and Nosema so I will dig it up. And you are absolutely correct about the Varroa - do you see that you need less treatment? Also, drone cutout would most likely work fine for you since I guess you have very short but intensive brood period.
will come back with the ventilation study
cheers

Mikael

 

[Dods bisyssla]

hi the study was in the package from Randy regarding dysentery and Nosema so I will dig it up. And you are absolutely correct about the Varroa - do you see that you need less treatment? Also, drone cutout would most likely work fine for you since I guess you have very short but intensive brood period.
will come back with the ventilation study
cheers

Mikael

HI again, here is link to the study that was quoted in Randy Olivers paper on the reasons for dysentery. Toomemaa, K, et al (2013) Determining the amount of water condensed above and below the winter cluster of honey bees in a North – European Climate. Journal of Apicultural Research 52(2): 81-87
I only read the abstract myself and it might be a pay to view for the whole paper.
If you want to visit Randy's originalpaper you can use this link:
https://scientificbeekeeping.com/th...dUkgtCwU368_oMZNPWHjM8N2FnIXoI4w#_Toc25035743It was a series of paper that he published in ABJ.
cheers

Mikael

 

[alisonfosterbell]

continue the post

4. I read somewhere a quote "that the person who does what he loves to do does not work one hour in his life". It's a very good quote and we try to integrate that in our bee management strategy and hence try to remove all boring and tedious work. Consequently we try to avoid certain jobs; put your hand to your heart and tell me that the sugar job in autumn is fun. This year we went from 50 % honey to 100% honey and it is the best decision ever since we didnt have to carry home 130 kg sugar (260 kg if 100% sugar to be used), we didn't spend evenings mixing the sugar syrup, we didn't go out late evenings to feed the sugar, we didn't clean the sugar supers afterwards and we didn't have to wait for late hives to conusme the sugar. That alone is worth a few kg of honey if it comes to that. But what was really the "cost" of going 100% honey? BTW, some people mix up the concepts and think that the honey given to the bees is a cost. In fact it is not a cost, it should be seen as investment in bee health and in future crops - you would not consider replace the fuel with water in the van and see it as a "cost saving" . And, since the variable cost of honey is basically zero (contrary to sugar), its not a cost at all. It might be a lost future sales but that is only an issue if one sells more than what is produced.


Well, we had to add 4 frames of honey per hive (about 6-8 kg) since they had plenty of honey that we couldn't use anyways - partly filled combs, non closed cells. As I already mentioned the bees have collected 5kg in september-october which means we have only given a net 3 kg. We have no doubt that we will get those kg's back in may, but even if we don't we saved several hours of really boring work which is reward enough.


5. Since we don't have to buy sugar we actually save money - 260 kg x 1 pound is 260 pounds that we do not have to spend. If we need more honey then we can use that money and invest in one more hive, easy peasy.
6. Beekeepers are often, and quite rightly so, proud of being a fighter for the local environment since pollinators are so important. But, the Halo does fit somewhat badly if one starts to think of the environmental footprint that the sugar replacement really means. I made a quick calculation and realized that the sugar we use in tiny Sweden to replace honey takes up 35 hectare of land. If instead those hectars would have been used for rye then 6000 tons could have been produced - in a starving world that is a bit offensive, in my humble opinion (and yes rye works well instead of sugar beets in the farming cycle). Just consider what it means on a global scale. On top of that pesticides are heavily used, at least in sugar beets production, and it also uses up loads of energy - all to replace something that the bees already produce, and of a better quality. In fact, we have started to use this as an argument why our honey is a better choice than the one produced by replacing the honey with sugar. And believe it or not - when we mention it to customers they are usually shocked to hear that bees are fed sugar instead of honey and then they prefer to buy from us. The price of the honey is then suddenly secondary.
Hope this gives some thoughts for those who would like to try to go 100% honey - it works at least for us.
Any questions ple feel free to address them.


7. There is a myth, at least here in Sweden, that bees are more aggressive in the autumn. We dismiss that claim 100%. In our experience bees that have plenty of food are not aggressive or prone to robbing other hives. When feeding sugar usually most honey is removed and then the bees feel they are totally out of food and for them it is a catastrophe - they start to desperate find food which leads to robbing and aggresiveness. Our bees are never out of food and consequently they are as gentle in september as they were in may - we have plenty of movies that shows that teh bees dont care that we give honey combs in september.
cheers

Mikael

A most interesting read Mikael, thank you. I would like to go to 50% and then 100% honey winter feeding. Would it be a good policy to jar up only, say, 50% of each extraction and to set aside the other 50% for winter feeding in the apiary? That way, if the year is bountiful, one can see the surplus. If the year has been poor then one has a backup of honey to feed. This year (erribly hot and prolonged drought, little summer forage avaible) I enthusiastically extracted and sold/gave away all my early summer honey, foolishly expecting there to be more! Sadly none until October with the ivy flow! Lesson learnt!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

one thing im certain of is that to have an opening in the top is absolutely wrong.

maybe you need to do a little more reading (and maybe a little more beekeeping.) look at people like Michael Palmer and even this forum's own Finman.
When the hives spend most of the winder buried almost to the roof in snow, how else would the bees ventilate, exit and enter the hive?

 

[Dods bisyssla]

maybe you need to do a little more reading (and maybe a little more beekeeping.) look at people like Michael Palmer and even this forum's own Finman.
When the hives spend most of the winder buried almost to the roof in snow, how else would the bees ventilate, exit and enter the hive?

by meshed ventilation - I have read many papers (especially old studies) where pictures of hives buried in snow were shown and they still manage to ventilate. Also our own hives are buried in snow for some weeks every year and no issues with ventilation. Not sure why the bees would need to enter and exit the hive when it is freezing outside.
But read the report I enclosed, as well as Randy's paper, and at least that study shows that the bees fan humid air downwards. A top ventilation will let cold dry air inside the hive and cool down and de-hydrate the hive which is contra-productive. But perhaps you have other studies showing the opposite? pls send and I will read them - I have no issues to be proven wrong if that is the case.

 

[Dods bisyssla]

A most interesting read Mikael, thank you. I would like to go to 50% and then 100% honey winter feeding. Would it be a good policy to jar up only, say, 50% of each extraction and to set aside the other 50% for winter feeding in the apiary? That way, if the year is bountiful, one can see the surplus. If the year has been poor then one has a backup of honey to feed. This year (erribly hot and prolonged drought, little summer forage avaible) I enthusiastically extracted and sold/gave away all my early summer honey, foolishly expecting there to be more! Sadly none until October with the ivy flow! Lesson learnt!

hi that is exactly what we do and in the past we used 50/50. But we realized that the job to give 50% sugar was more or less the same as 100% sugar. So, it was to avoid boring job we decided to go 100% honey and its our best decision ever.
good luck

Mikael

 

[Dods bisyssla]

ps we store the combs in plastic boxes and even today we have saved about 25 combs as reserve for the spring. We can also extract them if we dont need it - the honey in the combs usually are still liquid in may.
cheers

Mikael

 

[Murox]

I run deep Layens/Ukrainian hives, I made my own and the frames, as well as supers that hold only 8 short frames so I can manage them.

Maybe there is room for me to leave some honey in these supers on one hive for the winter and test what happens, more or less cleansing flights, size of spring cluster and feed remaining. Something to consider as I have never been a person that does things just because it has always been done so.

Layens/Ukranian frames are deep things, I use something similar with my homemade long hives. How many frames do you run a hive on ?8 or 12? if you have made a super to go on top? Do you follow/use the modifications of Vasyl Priyatelenko ?

 

[B_north]

When the hives spend most of the winder buried almost to the roof in snow, how else would the bees ventilate, exit and enter the hive?

Actually they don't go out and fly but they do have a cavity of sorts to exit the hive and die if they need to. Some beekeepers purposely pile the snow on their hives, the warmth from the bees melts a cavity and snow and is permeable to air. IMO the air within that cavity is warmer than the outside temps. so the air entering the hive is not as cold. This photo is from a successful apiary to the east of me.

I have successfully wintered with upper entrances, I am not proposing that it does not work and all beekeepers here are wrong. I do know, however, that brutal winters like the last one, take out a lot of beehives. Would they die anyway with only a bottom entrance, possibly, but starvation can be a component of that. If changing the entrance, while paying attention to how one insulates, slows down the honey consumption that might be something for us in colder zones to consider.

Layens/Ukranian frames are deep things, I use something similar with my homemade long hives. How many frames do you run a hive on ?8 or 12? if you have made a super to go on top? Do you follow/use the modifications of Vasyl Priyatelenko ?

My hives have 16 frames but I keep the broodnest area condensed down to a few and as the bees expand I expand accordingly. I probably could get away with fewer frames but I do like the extra space. With 16 frames I can put a standard Lang super on top if I would like but my supers are smaller to fit my limited abilities and I can put two side by side.

I will note that these hives are not high honey producing hives for me, it is a hobby and am not in the business of selling honey. I am sure someone with more experience has manipulation methods to garner more honey but I am fine with what I get and the ease of operation adds to my enjoyment.

I do follow Mr Priyatelenko as well as Beekeeping the hobby of the Urals.

 

[Dods bisyssla]

Actually they don't go out and fly but they do have a cavity of sorts to exit the hive and die if they need to. Some beekeepers purposely pile the snow on their hives, the warmth from the bees melts a cavity and snow and is permeable to air. IMO the air within that cavity is warmer than the outside temps. so the air entering the hive is not as cold. This photo is from a successful apiary to the east of me. View attachment 34413

I have successfully wintered with upper entrances, I am not proposing that it does not work and all beekeepers here are wrong. I do know, however, that brutal winters like the last one, take out a lot of beehives. Would they die anyway with only a bottom entrance, possibly, but starvation can be a component of that. If changing the entrance, while paying attention to how one insulates, slows down the honey consumption that might be something for us in colder zones to consider.

My hives have 16 frames but I keep the broodnest area condensed down to a few and as the bees expand I expand accordingly. I probably could get away with fewer frames but I do like the extra space. With 16 frames I can put a standard Lang super on top if I would like but my supers are smaller to fit my limited abilities and I can put two side by side.

I will note that these hives are not high honey producing hives for me, it is a hobby and am not in the business of selling honey. I am sure someone with more experience has manipulation methods to garner more honey but I am fine with what I get and the ease of operation adds to my enjoyment.

I do follow Mr Priyatelenko as well as Beekeeping the hobby of the Urals.

 

[Dods bisyssla]

Hi
Interesting thought and thanks for the explanation. To me this sounds as a given test to attach temp sensors inside the cavity and measure it.
Also, one could have two hives between each other - one with the top ventilation and one with bottom. You weigh it each month (or when possible) and then you know if food consumption differs.
Cheers

Mikael

 

[Antipodes]

Actually they don't go out and fly but they do have a cavity of sorts to exit the hive and die if they need to. Some beekeepers purposely pile the snow on their hives, the warmth from the bees melts a cavity and snow and is permeable to air. IMO the air within that cavity is warmer than the outside temps. so the air entering the hive is not as cold. This photo is from a successful apiary to the east of me. View attachment 34413

I have successfully wintered with upper entrances, I am not proposing that it does not work and all beekeepers here are wrong. I do know, however, that brutal winters like the last one, take out a lot of beehives. Would they die anyway with only a bottom entrance, possibly, but starvation can be a component of that. If changing the entrance, while paying attention to how one insulates, slows down the honey consumption that might be something for us in colder zones to consider.

My hives have 16 frames but I keep the broodnest area condensed down to a few and as the bees expand I expand accordingly. I probably could get away with fewer frames but I do like the extra space. With 16 frames I can put a standard Lang super on top if I would like but my supers are smaller to fit my limited abilities and I can put two side by side.

I will note that these hives are not high honey producing hives for me, it is a hobby and am not in the business of selling honey. I am sure someone with more experience has manipulation methods to garner more honey but I am fine with what I get and the ease of operation adds to my enjoyment.

I do follow Mr Priyatelenko as well as Beekeeping the hobby of the Urals.

Incredible to see the hives deliberately buried in snow like that.

 

[Delgirl]

Watched this post with interest as I always leave a full honey super on over winter on my langs and interesting to see what other people do. Honey for me is also a byproduct of my hobby but, like many this year, I had a bumper harvest and lots of bees. I have also been watching Bob Binnie's interesting talks on sugar versus honey recently. Appreciate he is a big producer and in the USA so there is also an economic factor going on but for those who do not watch the video, he goes the sugar route and seems to present a good argument for doing so aside from just the economics in his business. (2 episodes). . So many answers for each beekeeper as usual and all have pros and cons and seem to depend heavily on environment too.