Honey vs syrup & over wintering

[pargyle]

Welcome to the forum ... a very interesting first post thank you. We will look forward to more from you as your experiments continue.

The discussion on sugar versus honey for winter stores is raised on here on a regular basis ...and there are no real scientific answers.

I prefer to see my bees with mostly their own honey to winter on, although I top up the hive weight to maximum with Invertbee. I find they do very well on this basis.

 

[Dods bisyssla]

I see it as this some colonys need the extra sugar supplement otherwise they wouldn't get through the winter.
We take there honey supplies for our own consumption and then there's bad weather a dearth for weeks.
Do you dicide to feed the honey you have collected from the supers and feed it back to them or do you take minimal honey and leave them half of the supers, this is OK if your a hobbyist but if its a business maybe there is two different aspects or ways at looking at it??
I've noticed some times colonys will store minimal honey in the brood box and put it all in the supers and visa versa filling the brood and putting honey in the supers last..
Im slowly becoming a bee farmer and to me sugar is a colony saver, stimulant and has helped save many a colony.
To feed only honey I would be feeding most of what I extract back to the bees.
To me there has to be a difference between hobbest and bee farmer. Ie the way you feed treat and in some ways look after your bees.

HI
I agree with you when you say it is a live safer when there is no honey available - and that is. in my humble opinion, how sugar should be used. But to claim that all honey have to be given back, in order to give winterfood to bees, seems to be a statement based on anecdotics rather than science. We have tested several ways (pure sugar syrup, 50/50 and 100% honey) and our experience is that hives that gets honey produces more honey, than those wintering on sugar, enough both for their needs and for us. Furthermore, we see very little impact by the wheather during our 12 years, come rain come hot wheather but the bees seems to be able to find nectar regardless.
Also, to claim that we cant afford to give bees honey is a bit like claiming we will safe fuel by replacing some of the gas with water. The bees need their honey in order to be able to perform in an optimized way same way as a car or tractor need proper fuel.

 

[Dods bisyssla]

Welcome to the forum ... a very interesting first post thank you. We will look forward to more from you as your experiments continue.

The discussion on sugar versus honey for winter stores is raised on here on a regular basis ...and there are no real scientific answers.

I prefer to see my bees with mostly their own honey to winter on, although I top up the hive weight to maximum with Invertbee. I find they do very well on this basis.

Thanks
its really strange that this simple question have not been tested properly since it is fairly simple to do so. Our issues are that we are small players so we cant have the correct numbers when we carry out our tests and also we do not have access to closed winter sheds so the sugar hives will most likely get some honey, this years test shows that the bees continue to forage in sept - oct and actually gained 5 kg from early september until now.
But, sadly, it is still more than what anyone else have carried out.
And I will post some of the other myths that we have debunked, fex this year 12 out of 13 hives needed no formic acid to fight of the Varroa and we have not used any oxalic acid for many years nor any other pesticide. We only uses drone brood cutout and lactic acid as a 2nd punch if needed.

 

[Dods bisyssla]

I have looked before and I can't find any such papers. There are certainly papers that indicate that feeding sucrose (i.e. normal white sugar) syrup has a positive effect on wintering ability, but that isn't quite the same thing as you are asking. And of course there are studies that show that other types of syrup (e.g. corn syrup) are bad for bees, but that isn't really an issue in the UK thankfully.

For example
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29982786/
Not a scientific paper clearly, but this YouTube video is interesting on the subject, and fairly balanced (the introductory waffle ends after 4 mins 20 seconds or so so skip that if you want).



Honey does, according to this speaker, have a bit of protein in that the bees need, that sugar syrup of course lacks, but as long as the hive has pollen in I think this isn't an issue.

It's a shame that the speaker doesn't mention fondant, but my working assumption is that fondant has the same effect on a hive as feeding sugar syrup, given the ingredients.

So in summary, I suspect that a scientific study would not find a significant difference between hives that are left with their own honey, and hives which have most of the honey removed and are fed syrup or fondant. If someone can point me to a study that disproves this I would certainly welcome that.

HI
I have already given two papers in an answer but here they are.
http://www.resistantbees.com/fotos/estudio/feeding.pdf.
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep05726.
The mistake most do is that we only ask if bees can survive on sugar, and of course they do. But do they come out of the winter stronger than they go in? That is the real question because weak small colonies does not have the strength to take advantage of the huge amount of nectar in april may ( I live in Sweden). Our experience is that sugarhives are fully functional earliest in mid June but hives fed on honey are ready when the nectar is there, and that is the differnce. Also, is 15-20% winterlosses acceptable? I would argue no. Is it 100% due to sugar? probably not but Im convinced that it plays a vital role because honey is important for the immune defense (search for Tobias Olofsson research on LAB). Furthermore honey does contain vitamins and minerals which the older bees does not get from pollen (and if 20 kg of sugar is overflowing the hive then no pollen is available for any of the bees during the winter so the new bees are getting no proteins nor minerals or vitamins). And, yes they do have brood during winter and its even essential for them to do so.
Cheers

Mikael

 

[Dods bisyssla]

There lies the problem.

Some think that taking honey and feeding syrup is theft, unnatural, cruel or tight-fisted and that honey is innately best, better, more natural, kinder, blah, blah.

This much I have gathered: bees need carbohydrate in the winter to produce energy, but as little or no brood is reared the nutrients and minerals and other extras in honey are not truly necessary and syrup does the job just fine.

By comparison, the same minerals and pollen and extras in honey (which are essential in the summer) produce more waste than sugar, and though winter bees have a greater capacity than summer bees to store waste, there comes a point when it must be dumped.

Hive-bound bees may resort to off-loading in the hive (which is obviously bad news) and sugar is thus the winner as as it produces less waste while producing the same energy necessary for colony survival.

The bees started to develop the honey 125 million years ago and they survived the meteorite that wiped out Dino's. If sackaros would relly be better then why didnt the bees develop it rather than the more complicated honey?
Its true that when bees are studied in labs and just sit idle on a piece of wax then it does not matter much what they eat. But that is not realistic tests and give no intelligence what happens in the field. So, the claim that no brood are produced during the winter - do you have any studies to suppor that? The claim that honey would cause dysentery - do you have any studies to support that? My humble experience is that these claims are anecdotic myths, and I have yet to see good studies that prove these statements. But pls send links if you really have them.

 

[Ian123]

Hi there’s Canadian research showing less waste in a bees gut fed on sugar and less requirement to leave the hive and crap in extreme temps, but agreed there’s little comparative studies. if we take the argument to extremes though managed colonies probably operating on a mix of syrup and honey survive far better percentage wise than unmanaged feral hives surviving on honey alone. In this country those much maligned commercial Beeks who some tree huggers accuse of stealing all the bees honey have better percentage losses than say our amateur organisation and I suggest those more likely to leave more honey. I think quite a number of your other statements don’t add up, you still treat your hives by management not chemicals, brood is produced during the winter period and your bees always find nectar sources?

 

[Dods bisyssla]

Hello,
so I promised to debunk some "common knowledge" or opinions based more on "anecdotic stories" than scientic eveidence. I will start with my own favorite - the danger of using autumn honey for the winter-in (usually it means heather honey and/or honey dew). But I will not write a big essay on this subject since the job is already done by Randy Oliver and here is the link to the full article that was published in ABJ in 2019-2020 with all references to read.
The Nosema Problem: Part 7b - The Causes of Dysentery in Honey Bees: Part 2 - Scientific Beekeeping
For those who dont have the energy to read dozens of white papers I give a short resume.
Now I assume most have heard that the bigger ash content would be an issue and that will cause dysentery? Well, if that is actually true then automatically honey as winter food is banned because how would we avoid getting a portion of autumn honey in the winter stores? It is virtually impossible and as a result many bee keepers rob the hives clean of honey in august and replace it with sugar. One thing that really bugs me - if this would actually be true then how would the bees have survived, before mankind came and aided them with sugar, in countries like Scotland, Brittain, Sweden coast, Norway etc where heather, in some cases, are the only nectar in abundance?
Anyways, in his survey Randy found that already back in 1935 a researcher named Alfonsos spent two winters to check what really caused dysentery and no type of food had any impact (neither honey, honeydew, heather honey, sugar or any mix of sugar) and that the only issue that did cause an impact whether dysentery would happen or not was the ability to get rid of the water (1 kg of food gives 0,67 kg of water during the metabolism) and when the hind gut is full of water then dysentery will happen. In addition, if the water content is too high that will make the situation worse (more water to get rid of) and also when the food chrystalizes and hence split into one portion with high water concentration and one portion of solid glucos which the bees have issues to dissolve, also add to the water stress. The bees can remove water by breathing, but when that is not suffiecient they will have to produce brood and calculations show that half a comb with brood use up one week of accumulated water. Another elegant test, by Möbus, where they caged the queen in a hive, confirmed that when they could not produce brood then dysentery would happen and it happened after some weeks.
Now, its fairly easy to calculate the ash content and if one do so its absolutely clear that the minerals will never cause issues. Furthermore, bees have rectal pads - which not all insects have - but thsoe who have use them to re-use the minerals. So with those two facts its pretty clear that minerals do play a vital role in the biology of the bees and that they rather experience a lack of them then have too much.
Then, if one does calculate the water that the bees have to get rid of (Randy does that exercixe) it will also confirm that it takes about 30-40 days before the hind gut is full.
Finally, there is very few studies where bees have been fed pure heather or honey dew but I have one report, from black forest, where the bees naturally forage honey dew and they saw no increased winter mortality compared to areas where no honey dew is found.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...on_the_stores_with_addition_of_honeydew_honeyI challenge anyone to come up with a study that shows either heather or honey dew to be an issue (not counting concrete honey which is one exception due to not containing any mono- or di-sackarids).

And lastly, we conducted a test in 2020 where our hives got 40-50% heather honey and all the colonies came out super strong without a trace of dysentery. This winter we do another test where we give 100% heather and compare it to 100% of summer honey. So far both hives have increased their weight with about 5 kg (started at 34-35 kg and now they are at 38-39 kg). We use 3 boxes of size LN that probably equals 2x Langstroth.
Cheers
Mikael

 

[Dods bisyssla]

Hi there’s Canadian research showing less waste in a bees gut fed on sugar and less requirement to leave the hive and crap in extreme temps, but agreed there’s little comparative studies. if we take the argument to extremes though managed colonies probably operating on a mix of syrup and honey survive far better percentage wise than unmanaged feral hives surviving on honey alone. In this country those much maligned commercial Beeks who some tree huggers accuse of stealing all the bees honey have better percentage losses than say our amateur organisation and I suggest those more likely to leave more honey. I think quite a number of your other statements don’t add up, you still treat your hives by management not chemicals, brood is produced during the winter period and your bees always find nectar sources?

HI
many questions - or rather opinions. But Pls do send the link to the study I will read it.
Of course there are no nectar sources during the winter (why do you think bees build a store - only for mankind?) but we let the bees keep 15-20 kg honey which we store in plastic boxes during the summer - which we also use when there is a dreath in July. Consequently, our bees have never seen a sackarid particle. We do use acids if we must but as stated only when really needed - this year 1 out of 13 needed formic acid and none treated with oxalic or any other pesticide. We regularly use lactic acid but it is, in my humble opinion, a mild acid, and we use it if the mite fall is above 20 per week.
Some may argue, quite correctly, that the efficiency is limited during brood season. But we are only interested in knocking down enough mites to stay under the thresh-hold (which we set to 20-25/ week) and for that purpose it works fine.
As for ash content having any impact on dysentery see my other post - if you have any evidence to the contrary pls send the study. Of course there will be more content from honey than sugar since sugar contain nothing but empty calories. But if you do your math you will see that they can sit for minimum 10 month without the ash would ever be an issue. I have seen my fair share of hard winters (north Sweden) but none that lasted 10 month.
As for winter losses - we have had 0 losses over 8 years with exception for a few hives that did early switch of queens. Its a calculated risk we take since we let them do the change on their own. Since we have learned this year that they do make brood during the winter we may tune that strategy somewhat. Its one of the beauties with bees that you always learn something new and that one need to adopt the strategy accordingly.
As for not making sense - with all due respect, dont tell me that it cant be done since this is a strategy which we have developed during 8-10 years and it sems to work.
Zero losses (not counting the queenless hives), enough honey so it last also for the bees, and very little chemicals used.

Cheers

Mikael

 

[Ian123]

So you still treat or use a management process to reduce varroa… what myths have you busted.?You still feed but it’s honey! As for ash or honey due I’ve never heard a Uk beek complain or worry about that myth rather a non issue? When I started I was told heather was not good for wintering but I’ve not really heard that for decades as a statement of fact!..ITLD doesn’t appear to have any issues, and I love bees close to late sources of pollen/nectar they winter better and stronger but most, particularly smaller colonies will be fed syrup as well. I and many others have also overwintered very small mating nucs who’s cluster would probably amount to a grapefruit size, these survive pretty much on syrup with minimal stores, they survive! So not really sure about myths you suggest need busting! You’ve done well with zero losses but it happens even to the best it’s natural. Perhaps you’ve not had bees long or many hives?…. I’ve got to ask are you a retired engineer

 

[Dods bisyssla]

So you still treat or use a management process to reduce varroa… what myths have you busted.?You still feed but it’s honey! As for ash or honey due I’ve never heard a Uk beek complain or worry about that myth rather a non issue? When I started I was told heather was not good for wintering but I’ve not really heard that for decades as a statement of fact!..ITLD doesn’t appear to have any issues, and I love bees close to late sources of pollen/nectar they winter better and stronger but most, particularly smaller colonies will be fed syrup as well. I and many others have also overwintered very small mating nucs who’s cluster would probably amount to a grapefruit size, these survive pretty much on syrup with minimal stores, they survive! So not really sure about myths you suggest need busting! You’ve done well with zero losses but it happens even to the best it’s natural. Perhaps you’ve not had bees long or many hives?…. I’ve got to ask are you a retired engineer

hmm strange - I kind of notice your starting argument was that the high ash content was an issue. If that was wrong then I humbly apologize and so we are in full agreement.
But from your post "Hi there’s Canadian research showing less waste in a bees gut fed on sugar and less requirement to leave the hive and crap in extreme temps, but agreed there’s little comparative studies. if we take the argument to extremes though managed colonies probably operating on a mix of syrup and honey survive far better percentage wise than unmanaged feral hives surviving on honey alone." it seems you claim ash content should be an issue.
But, not being native, my english is limited and I do apologize if I mis-interpreted it (but I still would like to get the study you refer to).
And the myth busted, by Randy Oliver not me, is that autumn honey causes dysentery due to the big ash content.
That myth/statement can be read in many books and studies without any references.



Cheers

Mikael

 

[Ian123]

Hi I quoted the Canadian piece as I’ve dug it out a couple of times, I made no reference to ash but a benefit of syrup over honey in some circumstances. The piece as far as I remember makes no referral to ash. The Uk does get honeydew but it’s liable to be very mixed and an infrequent crop for the vast majority. I’ve never heard any worry about it’s highly limited inclusion in Winter stores! So I am wondering about what myth has been busted.
Simple fact is bees do just fine being fed syrup I can’t think of a case of hives dying from to much syrup but rather lack of. So if that’s the case what’s the issue!

 

[Dods bisyssla]

Hi I quoted the Canadian piece as I’ve dug it out a couple of times, I made no reference to ash but a benefit of syrup over honey in some circumstances. The piece as far as I remember makes no referral to ash. The Uk does get honeydew but it’s liable to be very mixed and an infrequent crop for the vast majority. I’ve never heard any worry about it’s highly limited inclusion in Winter stores! So I am wondering about what myth has been busted.
Simple fact is bees do just fine being fed syrup I can’t think of a case of hives dying from to much syrup but rather lack of. So if that’s the case what’s the issue!

HI
you do talk about waste and if it is not the ash content then what is it? And you claim that syrup is just fine or better in "some circumstances" - not sure what that means - but pls give a study to support any claim or we are just stuck in a circle evidence which is a waste of time. I will not repeat which myth was busted - its already answered with plenty of references.
Cheers

Mikael

 

[B_north]

so I promised to debunk some "common knowledge" or opinions based more on "anecdotic stories" than scientic eveidence. I will start with my own favorite - the danger of using autumn honey for the winter-in (usually it means heather honey and/or honey dew). But I will not write a big essay on this subject since the job is already done by Randy Oliver and here is the link to the full article that was published in ABJ in 2019-2020 with all references to read.
The Nosema Problem: Part 7b - The Causes of Dysentery in Honey Bees: Part 2 - Scientific Beekeeping

I read that Randy Oliver paper and my take was that he found that granulated stores causes dysentery in bees. Here is the following last notes he puts up in conclusion to his study. The bolding is mine, note his focus on crystalline honey, it is just parsing words to focus on the fact that excess moisture is the cause we need to also note the the cause of the excess moisture is contained within the crystallized honey. Also point #5, although the 'math' might show that bees can last 10 months Randy clearly states that the long confinement does cause dysentery.


SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS

1. Dysentery of honeybees is caused by excess moisture in the feces.
2. This excess moisture is due to the consumption of dilute food or water. It is generally produced by crystallization of the stores; this divides the honey or syrup into a solid crystalline portion and a liquid portion. The liquid portion contains an excess quantity of moisture.
3. Pollen, dextrin, minerals, burned sugar, and fermenting syrup do not produce dysentery.
4. Chilling and disturbing honeybees may cause defecation, but do not produce dysentery in a healthy colony.
5. Long confinement of bees during the winter, as well as a short confinement on unripe honey, produce dysentery.
6. Water alone or dilute syrups produce dysentery in bees if absorbed during confinement.
7. Dysentery appears when the fecal accumulations reach 33% of the total body weight of the bees. General defecation does not take place until the accumulation reaches about 45%.

Practical application: Alfonsus’s paper did not mention nosema. Dysentery, rather than being a symptom of nosema infection, appears to be due to unmanageable moisture accumulation in the guts of wintering bees. I’ll wrap this series up in the next installment, in which I’ll cover the things that bees, and their keepers, can do to solve this problem


In my neck of the woods where the winter stores are made up of mostly Canola honey which crystallizes quickly feeding sugar syrup in the fall is a must.

 

[Ian123]

Hi I did indeed mention waste bee break down pollen grains bee poop is filled with the husk of the grain. Bees feeding on syrup consume fewer grains and subsequently require less voiding or at least that’s the gists of the paper if I remember correctly! In the Uk not an issue in the extremes of Canada I’d imagine more so.
I’ll look for the Canadian report but I’ve a bbq for 70 tonight. As above I’m still trying to figure what myths are busted or what issues are solved or indeed highlighted for the benefit of beekeepers.

 

[Dods bisyssla]

I read that Randy Oliver paper and my take was that he found that granulated stores causes dysentery in bees. Here is the following last notes he puts up in conclusion to his study. The bolding is mine, note his focus on crystalline honey, it is just parsing words to focus on the fact that excess moisture is the cause we need to also note the the cause of the excess moisture is contained within the crystallized honey. Also point #5, although the 'math' might show that bees can last 10 months Randy clearly states that the long confinement does cause dysentery.


SUMMARY AND CONCLUSIONS

1. Dysentery of honeybees is caused by excess moisture in the feces.
2. This excess moisture is due to the consumption of dilute food or water. It is generally produced by crystallization of the stores; this divides the honey or syrup into a solid crystalline portion and a liquid portion. The liquid portion contains an excess quantity of moisture.
3. Pollen, dextrin, minerals, burned sugar, and fermenting syrup do not produce dysentery.
4. Chilling and disturbing honeybees may cause defecation, but do not produce dysentery in a healthy colony.
5. Long confinement of bees during the winter, as well as a short confinement on unripe honey, produce dysentery.
6. Water alone or dilute syrups produce dysentery in bees if absorbed during confinement.
7. Dysentery appears when the fecal accumulations reach 33% of the total body weight of the bees. General defecation does not take place until the accumulation reaches about 45%.

Practical application: Alfonsus’s paper did not mention nosema. Dysentery, rather than being a symptom of nosema infection, appears to be due to unmanageable moisture accumulation in the guts of wintering bees. I’ll wrap this series up in the next installment, in which I’ll cover the things that bees, and their keepers, can do to solve this problem


In my neck of the woods where the winter stores are made up of mostly Canola honey which crystallizes quickly feeding sugar syrup in the fall is a must.

hi
sure long confinement on diluted honey or syrup - point 6 - may cause dysentery if the bees can't get rid of the water. But if we talk about honey that have 23% water instead of 19-20% the extra water is just 30-40 gram per kg so an issue surely but not huge. And if you read line 2 it is chrystalized honey or syrup that divides the food into a liquid portion and a solid portion. Now I kind of remember from my syrup days that this is exactly what we saw in the remaning syrup combs in the spring. Honey, on the other hand, more divides into a fructose portion (liquid) and glucose portion (solid) but the water content is usually same. Now, we only tested honey from a jar not in frames so this is no clear evidence wahtsoever.
We have plenty of Canolas here and we usually take it out and process it directly otherewise it will be stuck in the frames. Why it would be left in the hives I dont understand since it flower in may (autumn version) or june (spring version) and then noone will get it out of the combs. Perhaps it flowers later in your part of the world? If it really creates a liquid portion I dont know but we plan to carry out a test in the future. What it does, however, is to create a solid glucose portion (Canola have high content glucose) which the bees have trouble to dissolve - we did a small test with a jar of solid honey that broke and they had huge issues to eat it. So it may be that they starve to death rather than get dysentery from Canolas.

cheers

Mikael

 

[Dods bisyssla]

Hi I did indeed mention waste bee break down pollen grains bee poop is filled with the husk of the grain. Bees feeding on syrup consume fewer grains and subsequently require less voiding or at least that’s the gists of the paper if I remember correctly! In the Uk not an issue in the extremes of Canada I’d imagine more so.
I’ll look for the Canadian report but I’ve a bbq for 70 tonight. As above I’m still trying to figure what myths are busted or what issues are solved or indeed highlighted for the benefit of beekeepers.

Hi
so if it is the pollen that now is the issue then it have little to do with what kind of honey they eat - studies show that pollen content in honey exist but is rather low. And why they would consume less pollen if fed sugar is also unclear but pls provide studies to back up these new claims, thanks.
have a good BBQ

Mikael

 

[B_north]

sure long confinement on diluted honey or syrup - point 6 - may cause dysentery if the bees can't get rid of the water. But if we talk about honey that have 23% water instead of 19-20% the extra water is just 30-40 gram per kg so an issue surely but not huge. And if you read line 2 it is chrystalized honey or syrup that divides the food into a liquid portion and a solid portion. Now I kind of remember from my syrup days that this is exactly what we saw in the remaning syrup combs in the spring. Honey, on the other hand, more divides into a fructose portion (liquid) and glucose portion (solid) but the water content is usually same. Now, we only tested honey from a jar not in frames so this is no clear evidence wahtsoever.
We have plenty of Canolas here and we usually take it out and process it directly otherewise it will be stuck in the frames. Why it would be left in the hives I dont understand since it flower in may (autumn version) or june (spring version) and then noone will get it out of the combs.

Canola flowers from mid July until beginning of August and by August 10 we need to have the supers off for fall treatments. No significant nectar sources are after the middle of August. If I remove the canola honey what is left? nada, nix, naught for them for the winter and no appreciable outside source to replenish.

I am currently in my syrup days and I have yet to see a syrup frame divide into solid and liquid form.

However you parse his words the crystallized honey is, in his opinion a factor in creating dysentery, hence the need to remove it and have some alternative either in honey form or sugar syrup.

 

[Dods bisyssla]

Canola flowers from mid July until beginning of August and by August 10 we need to have the supers off for fall treatments. No significant nectar sources are after the middle of August. If I remove the canola honey what is left? nada, nix, naught for them for the winter and no appreciable outside source to replenish.

I am currently in my syrup days and I have yet to see a syrup frame divide into solid and liquid form.

However you parse his words the crystallized honey is, in his opinion a factor in creating dysentery, hence the need to remove it and have some alternative either in honey form or sugar syrup.

hi

well that is your interpretation and not a fact and Randy is very fact driven.
And yes, chrystalized honey may cause dysentery as well as chrystalized or diluted sugar - that is the essence of the article.
But - without studies to back up a claim the discussion will only be based on opinions.
As said I dont know for a fact that syrup will split into a liquid portion or not - its a hypothesis.
However, next year we plan to carry out a test with honey- and sugar-hives in same apiary and I will add that to the topics to check (liquid portions).

As for having no honey to give as winter food - we collect summer honey that we add to the autumn honey to reach the 15-20 kg needed.

As for Canola or **** seed we have not tested it yet so I dont know if it will work as winter food or not - test needs to be done to know for sure, but its low on my priority list.
BTW- is there no heather or honey dew in Canada? Clover?

cheers

Mikael

 

[B_north]

As for having no honey to give as winter food - we collect summer honey that we add to the autumn honey to reach the 15-20 kg needed.

As for Canola or **** seed we have not tested it yet so I dont know if it will work as winter food or not - test needs to be done to know for sure, but its low on my priority list.
BTW- is there no heather or honey dew in Canada? Clover?

We don't get summer honey, and our recommended wintering amount is 40kg. The only flow is the fall harvest, we do not have multiple flows just one big one. Our clover blooms at haying time the end of July and we do not get a second cut so the repeat bloom is small if it appears at all.

I do not expect Canada's need to be high on anyone's list other than ours and we are a vast country so Canada's needs may not even be central or northern Canada's needs.

I was just pointing out for future readers, that in some places of the world there is a risk in using only autumn honey as a food source so it is important to know your own area and weather patterns before taking advice. Randy does clearly summarize that crystallized honey causes dysentery, as for the syrup he only makes mention of water or dilute syrup and the syrup we feed in fall is dried and capped by the bees before winter sets in so IMO it does not qualify dilute

 

[Dods bisyssla]

We don't get summer honey, and our recommended wintering amount is 40kg. The only flow is the fall harvest, we do not have multiple flows just one big one. Our clover blooms at haying time the end of July and we do not get a second cut so the repeat bloom is small if it appears at all.

I do not expect Canada's need to be high on anyone's list other than ours and we are a vast country so Canada's needs may not even be central or northern Canada's needs.

I was just pointing out for future readers, that in some places of the world there is a risk in using only autumn honey as a food source so it is important to know your own area and weather patterns before taking advice. Randy does clearly summarize that crystallized honey causes dysentery, as for the syrup he only makes mention of water or dilute syrup and the syrup we feed in fall is dried and capped by the bees before winter sets in so IMO it does not qualify dilute

thanks for the clarification. Where in Canada are you located and how long is the winter if I may ask? Its really the first time I hear Canola considered an autumn flower so there I learned something today, thanks for that.