Forum Poll

[pargyle]

but lets get contentious and scrap the "like" button. Its a very nondescript approval button that is in the realm of the "faceless book" and really has nothing to do with this forum.

Actually, it was something that was lacking from the 'old' forum and was a feature that a number of members asked for when the forum changed hands and was added as a result.

 

[Boston Bees]

but lets get contentious and scrap the "like" button. Its a very nondescript approval button that is in the realm of the "faceless book" and really has nothing to do with this forum.

True. But at least it's efficient and doesn't clutter threads up. If you take it away, you'll just get endless posts containing nothing more than the emoji

 

[plain_hunt]

What I tend to notice is the 'seasonality' of the majority of threads. I have been on the forum for a few years now and you can be guaranteed to get the same topics being discussed over and over again. This probably shows that a lot of the newer members who post these threads never use the search function and perhaps why some of the older members drop out? I put my hand-up in saying that I don't participate to a lot of threads for this reason nor do I want to sound unhelpful by suggesting to the OPs to use the search function. Otherwise I enjoy the forum, I learn a lot from members and enjoy the usual benter.

I have tried using the search function and find it doesn’t always give me what I want, or gives me too much and I can’t be bothered to look through it all. That’s probably my search term though. I find the forum is full of useful advice, although as others have said the same topics come up on an annual basis, that might be because people can’t find them on the search, or don’t bother looking, or find too many to go through. I like the humour that comes out, brightens up my day. I don’t always contribute, although I might disagree with what’s being said. I know some of my beekeeping will get adverse comments, but my bees don’t suffer, nor do they die. I just keep schtum on the topics I know will get shouted down.

 

[roche]

There have been a few comments, recently, about how people perceive this forum. It was originally set up as a platform for people to air their views, experience and opinions of beekeeping and to provide a collective knowledge to those seeking assistance in their beekeeping endeavours in a free, lightly moderated, format. This remains the position but this is your forum and it seems appropriate that we should seek your views about how you currently perceive the forum and what, if any, changes you would like to see. It's a poll where you can select more than one option and offer comments if you wish. The results will be published after it closes. You can vote without commenting.

I have to disagree slightly with the original reason the forum was set up; it was more to do with the number of people being banned from the BBKA forum, as they strongly opposed the BBKA taking money from pesticide manufacturers in return for endorsements. That reason, in and of itself resulted in the need for a "light touch" in moderation, which Mark originally provided.

Since then, it has developed a life of its own, and with the new moderators has become a place where accepted wisdom has been challenged. The new ownership has caused some people to leave - issues such as advertising and IP ownership claims cause problems. But I think Wilco sums it up rather neatly:

... I then decided that that (the questioning mindset which calls out untruths) was rather the point of this forum- learn new things and be corrected (ultimately to my benefit and that of my bees) when I'm wrong as this forum generally consists of actively thinking beekeepers rather than passive ones (even if I disagree with someone's thinking or views) This means being challenged...

...I think it is a mark more of the individual whether one thinks before posting, considers than many of the longer term members whilst disagreeing with each other have often earnt the respect of others whereas the individual is the new unknown and also what ones does with the responses- take things as a mature adult, throwing their toys out of the pram or even flouncing off (which I've seen)....

...I like this forum, personally try to be kind even if I disagree robustly but as a human don't always get everything right- facts or approach. I try to offer others the benefit of the doubt in the same way that I hope that they will continue to offer me. This forum is a rare thing in my experience and I like the spirit of it, even with the flaws.

As for improvements- it's up to each of us as individuals to try to think the best of others even if disagreeing robustly and to be(e) kind. I think most on here try to do that already.

I do think though, that after a few years in the doldrums, the moderation has improved markedly, as has the atmosphere. Maybe a little over-moderated sometimes, but that is just my opinion...

 

[pargyle]

I have to disagree slightly with the original reason the forum was set up; it was more to do with the number of people being banned from the BBKA forum, as they strongly opposed the BBKA taking money from pesticide manufacturers in return for endorsements. That reason, in and of itself resulted in the need for a "light touch" in moderation, which Mark originally provided.

Since then, it has developed a life of its own, and with the new moderators has become a place where accepted wisdom has been challenged. The new ownership has caused some people to leave - issues such as advertising and IP ownership claims cause problems. But I think Wilco sums it up rather neatly:



I do think though, that after a few years in the doldrums, the moderation has improved markedly, as has the atmosphere. Maybe a little over-moderated sometimes, but that is just my opinion...

Yes ... I was aware that there were problems with the old BBKA forum .. I discussed it, on one occasion, with Mark and there were a variety of issues that led him to start this forum - there was quite a bit to it.

By coincidence I had another conversation with Roger Patterson last weekend (he was given the mandate by the BBKA back then to sort their forum out) and I got his perspective on what was happening there at that time. I don't think the BBKA had the appetite to create a forum like this one and he did not get a lot of support.

We should, however, all be grateful to Mark for the effort he put in for all those years and the fact that the forum lives on. There are very few people recognised, truly, for services to beekeeping but the establishment of this forum should be applauded and indeed the late Peter Little (Hivemaker) for the work he did tirelessly as a moderator and the innovation be brought to us, largely via this platform.

His back catalogue of posts are an interesting read if you have an hour or ten to spare on a cold winters evening .. a masterclass in beekeeping.

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/members/hivemaker.156/

 

[Murox]

True. But at least it's efficient and doesn't clutter threads up. If you take it away, you'll just get endless posts containing nothing more than the emoji

Yes of course but now we just see endless "like' emoji that are often meaningless really - bit like where the phrase originated from. I was thinking more about substitution and something novel and meaningful rather than simply following the crowd/trend/what people are used to etc on other fora.

 

[Somerford]

When I first joined this forum it had 10-12 members who imparted a wealth of knowledge, but unfortunately they have either left of their own accord or were banned. This has had a detrimental affect on the forum.

Yes - I'm not the oldest member here by a long shot, just one of the earlier ones...

My observation is many who became banned could have remained if not for better moderation originally. If someone has 'beef' with another then that should be taken 'offline' so to speak and that's what the personal messaging facility can be used for so that threads aren't taken over by rants and personal attacks.

If anything the forum has become more like Twitter ( censorship and therefore redacting opinions ) rather than the Twitter Mr Musk envisages.

We have active moderation now, I think an Olive branch could be offered to those who were kicked off in the form of explicit rules and redemption.

10 years is a long time in life, it's only 10 seasons in UK beekeeping though and some who began their journey 10 years ago would happily still class themselves as 'learning but more competent than they once were'. We learn things all the time as I refer to in my own blog that has a readership of more than 1 so hopefully I am imparting some knowledge.

KR

Somerford

 

[Hairy]

There is no question of how useful and informative this forum is.
In some responses, often to newcomers, people behave as if in a school playground. The surly gang picking on the newby, mickey taking, bullying, having fun between them at the expense of the newby especially if an "in" joke.
It shouldn't matter what the subject is, or how ignorant the poster is. I fail to see how this blatant rudeness can be excused. In person, with a smile on your face while taking the mick it is much easier for the recipient to see the intention. But even in person some behaviour here would very obviously not be nice.
This has been described and explained away as robust discussion. Nonsense.
Often, this is by no means a friendly forum. It may not be the worst. Its level of knowledge in no way excuses the behaviour sometimes seen.

 

[pargyle]

There is no question of how useful and informative this forum is.
In some responses, often to newcomers, people behave as if in a school playground. The surly gang picking on the newby, mickey taking, bullying, having fun between them at the expense of the newby especially if an "in" joke.
It shouldn't matter what the subject is, or how ignorant the poster is. I fail to see how this blatant rudeness can be excused. In person, with a smile on your face while taking the mick it is much easier for the recipient to see the intention. But even in person some behaviour here would very obviously not be nice.
This has been described and explained away as robust discussion. Nonsense.
Often, this is by no means a friendly forum. It may not be the worst. Its level of knowledge in no way excuses the behaviour sometimes seen.

It's an opinion and clearly this poll was intended to solicit views from members about how they perceive the forum ... however, I've just looked through the thread you started when you joined the forum - you are in a pretty unique location up there in the far North of Scotland yet I find 51 posts .. all of them supportive, informative and without a hint of any of the unpleasantness that you describe.

Whilst not wishing to dismiss the accusations of rudeness, mickey taking and bullying I would suggest that they are extreme words and where there are any examples of anything approaching such behaviour the current moderators would be all over them with a blue pencil.

We should all seek to call out such behaviour in the forum - even when it may be wrapped in a fluffy blanket - anyone who feels so aggrieved or abused we would strongly recommend that they hit the 'Report Post' button. Personal attacks of any sort were enshrined as banning offences in the forum's original principles and nothing has changed since then.

However, we should be careful not to mistake factual challenges, humour and the normal banter among members who have history (and occasionally 'in jokes') for something they are not.

 

[Murox]

If we can't add an emoji to the strap line there is nothing to stop you just adding a post, quoting the original post and adding the emoji. It's a little bit more effort but it has the same effect.

I have a real dislike of the “Like” button, even Rosenstien is now critical of the ubiquitous “like” button, describing it as “bright dings of pseudo-pleasure”. Written comments give others something to work with/think about. A "like" button promotes laziness and little incentive to comment on a post when you can just show your appreciation or approval with a popularity button, but there are other ways of assessing the number of followers and Likes accumulate on a post.
When replying to a post/thread I've always found writing a compliment or friendly message in words instead of simply a 'like notification' is more constructive.

 

[GlenJ]

I haven't posted for a long time. Not because of any fear of being ridiculed but having got a few years under my belt now I have fewer questions and so much gets answered just by reading others posts. I have used the search feature on many occasions, it's not perfect but it can't be bad as I have a low patience threshold for such things. I did wander off and join some facebook groups for a while, but they were truly awful so this is my number one place again. I find it reassuring that the main "characters" are still here dishing it out, the good and the bad.

 

[madasafish]

I have been here for just over 12 years: about the same time as I have been a member of the Daily Telegraph.
Both have forums which are often knowledgeable: and you can learn a great deal.
Compared to the forum when I joined it in 2010, it is sweetness and light. (I recall the neonicotinoid diehards who gave (?)NO quarter)

Compared to the political sections of the Daily Telegraph, this is milk water and honey. The occasional arrogant dismissal of someone asking the same beekeeping question that has been asked 1,000 times before or the upholder of some philosophy of beekeeping largely shown as seriously misguided several thousand posts ago, is NOTHING compared to the Remainer/Leaver wars which still break out. NOTHING.

And when you look at the wars about trans people and their treatment where famous people are cold shouldered and ignored as if they do not exist because they DARED TO EXPRESS A CONTRARY OPINION..

So no, this forum is not perfect and could do better. But compared to the above two examples - and largely the Guardian Comments section as well- it is sweetness and light.

I was brought up in the late 1950s and 1960s- the sheer brutality and bullying which went on then in many walks of life and work is not so different from that practised today by those in politics who KNOW they are right and therefore anyone who disagrees with them is EVIL . (See President Putin as one example and a Deputy Leader of a UK Political Party - who has since recanted)

 

[Beegarden]

Yes of course but now we just see endless "like' emoji that are often meaningless really - bit like where the phrase originated from. I was thinking more about substitution and something novel and meaningful rather than simply following the crowd/trend/what people are used to etc on other fora.

I am generally more a 'reader' than a contributor, as I seem to make more mistakes as each year passes! I tend to use the 'like' emoji as moral support for someone who has bothered to make a good point, although it is true, it is a very vague emoji. I often don't know what to say in response, or come to the comment long after others have intervened. What about as a sympathetic response, for flippant or derogatory posts, few though they are, for obvious reasons, or general clapping hands for when a beginner does well or one of our many sages posts a succinct comment or advice, to name a few. Does it cost the Forum more to add extra emojis? I believe that to add too many, would, as Murox, says discourage members from adding a personal comment. There, I've done it.

 

[pargyle]

I am generally more a 'reader' than a contributor, as I seem to make more mistakes as each year passes! I tend to use the 'like' emoji as moral support for someone who has bothered to make a good point, although it is true, it is a very vague emoji. I often don't know what to say in response, or come to the comment long after others have intervened. What about as a sympathetic response, for flippant or derogatory posts, few though they are, for obvious reasons, or general clapping hands for when a beginner does well or one of our many sages posts a succinct comment or advice, to name a few. Does it cost the Forum more to add extra emojis? I believe that to add too many, would, as Murox, says discourage members from adding a personal comment. There, I've done it.

All views are welcome... even from lurkers and we know there are many, many people who lurk, read what interests them and use the back catalogue ... as a night person myself I am often astonished at the number of legitimate members (not the inevitable bots) viewing threads in the middle of the night. Members for many years but who simply, clearly, get something from this forum without the need or desire to contribute - they are an integral part of the membership and of equal value to those who post regularly.

I don't know the answer to the emoji issue ...this poll was not at the behest of the forum owners but we will take any suggestions to them when it concludes and we have a concensus.

I can see the benefit of a broader range of instant 'comments' if they don't detract from, or interfere with, people participating with actual posts.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I have a real dislike of the “Like” button

Maybe we should have a 'not like' button specially for you

even Rosenstien is now critical of the ubiquitous “like” button

I don't think I can take anyone seriously who gets their knickers in a twist over a little function on facebook or twitter

 

[user 20297]

but lets get contentious and scrap the "like" button. Its a very nondescript approval button that is in the realm of the "faceless book" and really has nothing to do with this forum.

The "like" button is a straightforward and non-contentious way to show support for an opinion or some good or generous advice, without having to litter the thread with surplus words or to further inflame things when swords are crossed.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well in one members opinion the like button CAN inflame. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder they say

 

[Mint Bee]

There is no question of how useful and informative this forum is.
In some responses, often to newcomers, people behave as if in a school playground. The surly gang picking on the newby, mickey taking, bullying, having fun between them at the expense of the newby especially if an "in" joke.
It shouldn't matter what the subject is, or how ignorant the poster is. I fail to see how this blatant rudeness can be excused. In person, with a smile on your face while taking the mick it is much easier for the recipient to see the intention. But even in person some behaviour here would very obviously not be nice.
This has been described and explained away as robust discussion. Nonsense.
Often, this is by no means a friendly forum. It may not be the worst. Its level of knowledge in no way excuses the behaviour sometimes seen.

The written word doesn't have the nuance of face to face communication and so can easily be misconstrued, but i don't recognise your description of the forum. I have widely different views to others on the forum about beekeeping - that's life. If anyone starts claiming they have reinvented the wheel, newbee or not, then expect the claims to be challenged to provide some evidence.

You have been here a month today. It's a short period of time to come up with such a damning conclusion. If you stick around you will see there are a lot of incredibly friendly and generous people here, both in word and action. In my experience its a hell of a lot less rude here than the real world has become in the past few years

 

[user 20297]

Well in one members opinion the like button CAN inflame. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder they say

There's always the for them, on those occasions.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well we aren’t perfect. Newcomers can sometimes stumble into the matrix but one of the reasons for this poll was to gauge how deep this matrix was